The Enlightened Thread

[Tiberius]

I've run yesterday a simulation to find out the production/corruption in our new cities (Panama, Forkmouth). I didn't pay attention to science, but at some point, after the discovery of writing, the following options were available:

- Map Making: 16 turns
- Literature: 14 turns
- Iron Working: 8 turns
- Mysticism: 8 turns
- The Wheel: 6 turns

Please note that in reality the numbers could be higher, because I was having 5 cities, at least 3 of them of size 3 or bigger as I wasn't building settlers.

It is interesting that Literature is actually cheaper than Mapmaking, while the Wheel is closing to the 4 turns minimum research time.

If I'll have the time I'll do this again today, building Panama first this time and paying more attention to science.

[Sharpe]

If the ratios remain the same so that Iron Working and the Wheel are less than half the turns of either Literature or Map Making, I think that it might be worth a 6 to 8 turn delay in getting either tech and going for one of the Iron Working and the Wheel techs.

[vondrack]

Originally posted by Sharpe
If the ratios remain the same so that Iron Working and the Wheel are less than half the turns of either Literature or Map Making, I think that it might be worth a 6 to 8 turn delay in getting either tech and going for one of the Iron Working and the Wheel techs.

I understand it may look great to get IW or Wheel in under 10 turns, but keep in mind that we are almost certainly isolated. As long as we keep researching one tech-tree branch (Lit/MM), we still have a chance that once we get off our landmass and find others, we will be able to trade our techs (or one tech, at least) for theirs. However, if we research whatever looks "cheap" right now, we will end-up with techs everybody knows, tech-behind others (as others trade among themselves, thus having greater "total research output").

Try answering the following questions for yourself:

What kind of an advantage would learning the Wheel bring to us?
What kind of an advantage would learning the Iron Working bring to us?
And what kind of an advantage would Map Making bring to us?

[lmtoops]

I'm thinking along the same path as vondrack. We must look at the big picture and take into account our isolated location. If we discovered Iron the next turn (hypothically speaking), would our plans change. Absolutely not, we have the mercs and that is fine.
The only advantage I see with iron is if someone suddenly landed a settler on our island (assuming it's an island). They would know where the iron is and settle a city. That would suck, but I'm willing to take that risk. The AI would do that in a heart beat, but a human player....doubtful soo early in the game.

If we had the wheel, OK there would be some advantage as far as exploration. Maybe we would find a goody hut. But I don't think the advantage is too great.

With mapmaking, we can find the other civs. Finding the civs, we can trade for iron and the wheel. Knowing where the other civs are, we can plan our defenses.

I see mapmaking as the best way to go. Literature can wait. As Kloreep said, we can use the Pyramids as a shield holder. My choice for techs are:

1. Mapmaking
2. Literature
3. Wheel
4. Iron Working.

[Kloreep]

Since we're on Chieftan level, and are probably isolated, I think we should go for The Republic:
1. Mapmaking
2. Literature
3. Code of Laws
4. Philosophy
5. Republic

Just think of all that commerce. And we get that Despotism cap removed, too.

[lmtoops]

I only considered the 4 techs mentioned before (MapM, Lit, Iron, Wheel). You may be right about skipping Iron and Wheel. We'll get these through trade. In any case, that decision is 30+ turns away.

[ZargonX]

My current choices would be Mapmaking first, followed up by literature. Hopefully by that point we'll have made contact with someone else, and can choose based on those developments.

[Tiberius]

My commom sense logic tells me that we should go for MapMaking. However, the length of the research scares me. The possibility to discover anything under 10 turns is sooo tempting ...

[Sharpe]

So assuming no shrinkage in cost if any other civs have discovered them, our choices are will be after writing:

Map Making - 120 beakers
Literature - 100 beakers
Code of Laws - 100 beakers
Iron Working - 60 beakers
The Wheel - 40 beakers
Mysticism - 40 beakers
Mathematics - 80 beakers
Philosophy - 60 beakers

I used the amounts showing in Civ3Edit so I am assuming that is correct.

Last turn (2430 bc), we had 9 beakers that turn @100% science. We have been as high as 11 per turn and with 4+ cities soon we should get even more.

2 turns from now we will get at least 1 extra with the founding of Panama, and 2 more with growth in Legopolis and Jackson. However the amount from Jackson will likely decline 2 by the time we have finished writing due to its settler being finished.

So it is likely that we will have a minimum of 10 and perhaps 11 or 12 beakers per turn by the time we finish writing and assuming we still remain at 100% science.

Assuming 10 per turn the maximum turns per tech are:

Map Making - 12 turns (20 turns from 2430 bc)
Literature - 10 turns (18)
Code of Laws - 10 turns (18)
Iron Working - 6 turns (14)
The Wheel - 4 turns (12)
Mysticism - 4 turns (12)
Mathematics - 8 turns (16)
Philosophy - 6 turns (14)

My concern about doing mapmaking immediately after writing is that Iron Working, The Wheel and Mysticism are nearing the 4 turn minimum limit. Admittedly we can adjust the lux/money/tech slider now or later if they fall below the minimum.

However, I think that after writing that it is time to discover at least one of The Wheel and Iron Working. That would also give us the time to use the workers to put down more roads to make it easier and quicker to get the more costly techs such as map making.

[delmar]

I would go for MapMaking and then straight to Republic. I wouldn't bother to research Literature, as the Great Library is one of the most highly valued wonders, and therefore it is very likely that multiple teams will try to build it. If we want to build an early wonder, then I would vote for the Great Lighthouse, with the Colossus as a backup.

Once we have either of these, we will also have a chance to trigger our Golden Age by building the Great Wall, which I assume will be pretty low on everyone's list.

[vondrack]

Originally posted by delmar
I would go for MapMaking and then straight to Republic. I wouldn't bother to research Literature, as the Great Library is one of the most highly valued wonders, and therefore it is very likely that multiple teams will try to build it. If we want to build an early wonder, then I would vote for the Great Lighthouse, with the Colossus as a backup.

Once we have either of these, we will also have a chance to trigger our Golden Age by building the Great Wall, which I assume will be pretty low on everyone's list.

delmar, glad to see you back!

I would normally agree with the Great Lighthouse, as that's the wonder I often build in order to make most of discovering "the other continent"... but in our case, I'd probably give the Great Library a try, having the Great Lighthouse as a backup (building in Jackson). Thanks to the minimap trades and the fact that there is apparently another landmass just across the narrow strait from the Hammer Peninsula, I believe it is not necessary to have the Lighthouse to be able to reach other civs...

Considering how many turns it will take to build either of the wonders, I believe we will have much better idea of if we really need the Lighthouse... our galleys should already be out exploring... should we find out we need the Lighthouse to cross the water to others w/o losing too many vessels, we'd go for it, if not, we'd go for the Great Library...

Perhaps the best way would be to pretend we are going after the Great Lighthouse as long as possible, switching at the very last moment (should we decide to go for the Great Library).

[vondrack]

Originally posted by Sharpe
My concern about doing mapmaking immediately after writing is that Iron Working, The Wheel and Mysticism are nearing the 4 turn minimum limit. Admittedly we can adjust the lux/money/tech slider now or later if they fall below the minimum.

Well, Sharpe, your reasoning is partially correct, but flawed as a whole - if we go for IW, Wheel, or Mysticism, we might be using our beakers efficiently from the micromanaging point of view, but we would be wasting them (and time) from the strategic point of view. It is not certain we will research them EVER - because it is rather likely we will trade for them at a later time...

Try answering a simple question:

What do we need any of these "cheap" techs for?

[Sharpe]

Vondrack,

Hate to use your own words against you, but early on you argued to get the cheap techs such as Pottery out of the way... yet we haven't even attempted to build granaries yet. So what use has it been so far except to now allow us the possibility to get map making.

Will 4 to 6 turns really make a difference to get one of these techs?

The truth is the more land we discover in the southeast, the much more likely that some other civ is there. Plus without the strategic techs we are losing shields (for iron) (yes unlikely that we would use them currently) and commerce (for horses) each turn.

Thinking that we should be able to get IW and The Wheel in trades is flawed too. I raised that question about trading for them and generally the response was that they would demand more for these techs knowing how important they are (along with the government techs).

Don't forget as well - first we have to FIND the other civs continents too - that will result in more delay.

When we do meet up with the other civs we want to have as many techs as possible to maximize the trades. Getting some of these "cheap" techs will help in that.

[delmar]

Vondrack: couldn't find minimaps (pointer would be appreciated), except the RP one, from which I can't see squat. Just to be clear, the Great Lighthouse would be useful to make contact with everyone, not to make contact with someone. I think it is not very likely that you can do that without the Lighthouse, regardless of what you can see on the minimaps (well, if you can see clearly that the map is a Pangea type, that's an exception of course -- but in that case we shouldn't research Mapmaking in the first place).

Edit: Another interesting exception might be if we knew that some team has contact with every other team. In that case we probably don't need the Lighthouse. Do we have any such information?

Sharpe: we will always be able to research those resource-techs in 4 turns, so the other teams can take a hike if they want to sell it to us for more than what we would have to spend on them (yes, I realize that if we are in the middle of the expensive tech then this is not exactly true as we probably wouldn't want to switch, but they don't need to know this -- the question would be formulated as "we will have to select research direction in 2 turns, will you sell us IW or shall we start researching it?", even if we are 20 turns away from finishing the current tech).

The danger that someone comes up to us and (knowning the locations) settles on top of the resources is not too big IMHO as we have a pretty big empty space around us. Last time I checked we still had 8 turns until we finish Writing. I would say if we can't find anyone before that, then we are probably safe. One thing that makes me a bit uncertain is that half-explored peninsula South-West from Legopolis. If that indead leads somewhere, that's a bummer. But Vondrack had a good plan to send Angus there, so I think even that can be clarified before we have to make a research choice.

Somewhat offtopic here , but I wanted to mention that I am quite surprised by the size of empty space we have around us. I think I mentioned somewhere that the average distance between starting locations (not borders, or scouting units, in 2430BC!) should be around 11-13 tiles on such a map. This makes me think that we are either alone, or the land bridge to other teams is a pretty hidden one.

[vondrack]

Originally posted by Sharpe
Hate to use your own words against you, but early on you argued to get the cheap techs such as Pottery out of the way... yet we haven't even attempted to build granaries yet. So what use has it been so far except to now allow us the possibility to get map making.

True. However, with Farmerville, there is no need to build a granary in Legopolis or Jackson, as Farmerville shall be able to fully satisfy the need for workers (one every five turns, if I am not mistaken). Our expansion was a bit faster than anticipated, so we need Legopolis and Jackson building strong garrison units now (once Panama is up and running, spitting out Mercs, I believe a granary in Legopolis will actually become an option). And the "side effect" of Pottery allowing to research Map Making now is going to save our day, believe me.

Originally posted by Sharpe
Will 4 to 6 turns really make a difference to get one of these techs?

Yes, I am afraid, it will. Keep in mind that for these four to six turns, we are trying to match the combined research power of something like four to five other civs. Unless we devote all our efforts to a single tech-tree branch, we will have nothing to offer for trade when we finally meet someone else.

Originally posted by Sharpe
The truth is the more land we discover in the southeast, the much more likely that some other civ is there.

The discovery of an unpopped goody hut by Gaul in the last turn is an indirect evidence that there is nobody in the SE. You will better understand why I believe the SE is empty after you have a look at the latest map update (should be up in about an hour). I am convinced we are alone, on a fairly big island/continent. It is difficult to imagine we would have a neighbour there and he would have not paid a visit yet...

Originally posted by Sharpe
Thinking that we should be able to get IW and The Wheel in trades is flawed too. I raised that question about trading for them and generally the response was that they would demand more for these techs knowing how important they are (along with the government techs).

Well, that depends on what you can offer. Map Making for Wheel would be a great deal anyone would happily accept (especially when the civ you are trading with is far away across water, thus unlikely to attack you. Even if we need to make lopsided deals to catch up on tech-race, it will be well worth doing so. Once we catch up and establish contacts with other civs, we will be able to take full advantage of our isolation and the commercial trait.

Originally posted by Sharpe
Don't forget as well - first we have to FIND the other civs continents too - that will result in more delay.

Hate to use your own words against you, but this is exactly why we need to go for MM immediately. Once we have our galleys exploring and seeking other civs, we will be able to afford the luxury of considering "filling the gaps" in our tech tree by quickly grabbing those "cheap, but important" military techs. However, until we start building our first galley, we can't even think of trying to contact anyone else (barring any unexpected discoveries in the SE... and those could bring one contact - Voxes - at most).

Originally posted by Sharpe
When we do meet up with the other civs we want to have as many techs as possible to maximize the trades. Getting some of these "cheap" techs will help in that.

All of these "cheap" techs have already been traded/researched among them, I am pretty sure about that. Those that started on the relatively crowded landmass simply can't afford to take the risk and go any other way... they have to either research or trade for the vital military techs, to be able to rush and counter-rush.

Sharpe, I apologize for using rhetorical "questions" sometimes... if it looks like I am trying to make an idiot of you, it's just my inability to put it right. I mean the questions, I really do - the galleys coming with MM are what we desperately need now. Resources, mounted units, swordsmen - all of those are nice, but we can do without them, at least for the moment and the near future.