The Enlightened Thread

[lmtoops]

I would be more inclined to go for Adam Smith, simply because it's a better Wonder (I am a capitalist pig...oink oink). It cost more, but the benefits in gold will payoff in only a few turns.

I see the benefits of Megellan's as being much less. Sure GS has the additional thread of a home invasion, but I'm sure their home land is well pretected with or without Meg. Their more immediate concern is an invasion from GoW or ND.
The extra gold outweighs the +1 turn for ships.

This would make the order of wonders as:
1. Music Theory
2. Banking
3. Economics (to build Adam Smith)
4. Chemistry
5. Metallurgy
6. Military Tradition
7. Physics
8. Magnetism
9. Theory of Gravity

[Tiberius]

How about building both ?

Now seriously, both have immense value. ME has undoubtly a very high strategical value (we could hunt down any invaders with our fast ships) while AS would give us the much needed gold (for upgrades, financing allies, etc) gold.

So my plan would be to proceed aprox. like this (can anyone with a save available do the math please? if not, I'll do it at home):

Phase.1.
Prepare in the next few turns a city for wonder building (there are only 2 possible candidates: Jackson and Panama). They would prebuild a Palace while we would research Music Theory and Navigation, then it'd build Magellan's.

Phase.2.
During the Magellan's build, we would prepare the second city (best would be Karina probably) for a wonder build. We would research the lower branch of the techtree in the meantime.

Phase.3.
During our golden ages, Karina would start building a Palace, while due to our fast research we should be able to research Banking and Economics quite fast, finishing then Adam Smith.

I know I am a mad wonder-builder freak , and I would favour building any wonder (even the Great Library or the Oracle ), so let me know if this is totally crap or not

On a slightly more seriously note, I think we are capable building both wonders, without screwing too much our military building plans. The second wonder would be anyway far away in the future, 'cause 40 or 50 turns from now on is really a mistery.
Besides we are supposed to be builders and we are losing the wonder race, wich is a shame

[Tiberius]

Consequently my research path:

1) Music Theory
2) Navigation
3) Chemistry
4) Metallurgy
5) Military Tradition
6) Magnetism
7) Banking (if Vox isn't capable to finish it until then)
8) Economics
9) Theory of Gravity (another wonder can we, can we, pleeease !! )

[vondrack]

I must have expressed myself poorly - I did not mean to say we should build Magellan's ONLY, giving up on Adam Smith's to "balance" it. I meant to say we should use Magellan's to trigger our GA. Building Adam Smith's then, using the extra GA shields, would be subject to further discussion - I fully agree we could use a wonder as useful as that...

Just BTW - I checked with Beta yesterday. Voxes are 28 turns from Printing Press (running a 40-turn research project).

I will do my best to put together at least half-solid timeline regarding the potential wonder builds and GA timing by the end of this week.

[lmtoops]

I understood you fine. I think we should target Adam Smith to trigger our GA. We could settle for Magellan's if someone beats us to Adam's.

I suppose targeting both would be fine, but I don't see Magellan as a must have.

[Tiberius]

From our previous discussions, I assume that it is a team consensus to research Navigation next. Am I correct?

Btw, how far away are Voxes from PP and what should be their next target? Perhaps Banking?

I believe that us researching Navigation and then Chemistry, while Voxes researcing Banking would be the best solution for the moment.

[vondrack]

Quite frankly, I am not all that convinced now we should continue with Navigation immediately (yes, I have changed my mind a bit). I gradually tend to consider Banking a better choice for the moment. Here is why:

1) Voxes are not close enough to finishing PP (at least 10 turns). They would not be able to start with the Banking research soon enough.

2) Their next research project will be a 40-turn one again. It would be much better to get the 1632-beaker Democracy for those 40 turns, than the 1248-beaker Banking.

3) GoW considers starting a Chemistry research in the near future. If we do Banking and Navigation, we should be able to get Chemistry through trade, which would be a good thing (we shouldn't research EVERYTHING ourselves, traded techs are much "cheaper").

4) Our GA trigger, which I suppose will be Magellan's, will not be needed for at least 20 turns (according to the preliminary analyses done for some of our core cities). Thus, the only real advantage of the Navigation for us at this moment would be the ability to sail safe in the ocean tiles. That's not enough, I believe.

5) On the other hand, Banking allows banks - and e.g. Legopolis could squeeze a Bank (and perhaps a Uni) in after it finishes the Bachs' (~8 turns) and before it starts another wonder.

But yes... it's high time to start discussing this! So, everybody, speak up!

[Tiberius]

Good idea!

With Voxes being 10 turns from PP, we would have time for Banking (~ 8 or 9 turns for us). This would allow Vox to research Democracy next, which would be indeed better (more efficient).

We don't have anyway a prebuild for Magellan's, so in the meantime we could start one. Jackson would need at least 25 turns to build Magellan's, so in a few turns (after some more knights) we could start the prebuild, but in the next 20-25 turns we won't need Navigation for this purpose, that's for sure.

Should GoW not finish Chemistry in time, we will have one more reserve tech to avoid a non-research period: Economics (depending on how many resources we wouls have to commit in the Bob war, we could even build Smith's Trading Co. during our GA).

I don't care too much for a bank in Legopolis, however for the above reasons I agree with the proposed change.

[vondrack]

Hm... the point about having one more "spare" tech in case GoW is slow with Chemistry is a good one. I haven't thought about that, but it's worth mentioning.

And I agree that Jackson would probably be the best place to build Magellan's. We must choose a coastal city (paedia does not mention it, AFAIK, but I checked that in the editor), preferrably a high shield one. Jackson, now rapidly growing, with all his hills and bonus grasslands, is ideal, IMHO.

[Tiberius]

We could also build it in Panama, who has the advantage of having a marketplace, thus more happy citizens and less waste. They also have one more hill to work, just like Jackson.

If we decide ti use Jackson, me thinks we need a marketplace or a cathedral first; the city is growing, they already have unhappy citizens, we are going to lose a luxury, plus the war ... We need some happiness there.

[vondrack]

Hm, good point about the unhappiness in Jackson. Moreover, Jackson is "closer to the frontline", so knights produced there would be faster to join the parade... However, Jackson is (and will be) growing faster thanks to the irrigation there, getting to 20+ spt earlier than Panama. Pretty soon, Jackson will have too many spt for optimal knights production - while Panama should stay at 14spt for quite a while.

But a marketplace in Jackson is probably an idea worth considering (marketplace will have a stronger happiness impact than a cathedral, while being a lot cheaper to build).

[Tiberius]

We must decide what to research next until the next save arrives. Is Vondrack's latest plan acceptable for everyone?

The plan's summary:

Banking now, then Navigation;

As soon as Vox is ready with PP, we would give them Banking for a 40 turn Democracy research, while GoW would research Chemistry.

After that we would have to choose between Economics, Physics and Metallurgy.

[ZargonX]

That plan is agreeable.

[vondrack]

OK, I got into a planning mood today...

I was crunching some numbers (nothing precise, just estimates, but rather educated, I believe) and here is what I have come up with:

Note: now=480AD

Navigation discovered in 500AD (2t from now)
Economy discovered in 570AD (9t from now)
Magellan's Expedition finished in 610AD (13t from now)
GA thus started in 610AD (13t from now)
Physics discovered in 630AD (15t from now, 2t into the GA)
Adam Smith's finished in 640AD (16t from now, 3t into the GA)
Theory of Gravity discovered in 670AD (19t from now, 6t into the GA)
Magnetism discovered in 710AD (23t from now, 10t into the GA)

Let's assume I'm off by ~1 turn (a small reserve never hurts). Means that on condition we receive Chemistry from GoW within 2-3 turns we'll be able to provide Voxes with Chemistry for free (20t NDA would be over by the time we'd need to give it to them). At the same time, it is obvious that Voxes will have to acquire Metallurgy on their own, as Metallurgy will still be under the 20-turn NDA by that time). Just to make it clear, why all this: we will need Voxes to acquire all mandatory medieval techs within ~24 turns from now, so that they get their free industrial tech immediately after we send them the last mandatory medieval one, not delaying our own research by more than a single turn.

To this end, we should approach Vox and find out how long they estimate their research of Democracy will take - and discuss a Metallurgy (GoW) for Democracy (Vox) trade to be arranged well in advance, so that when our plans become more or less obvious, it would be too late...

Another possibility would be to, after few turns pass and we get closer to trading Astronomy to GoW, offer GoW resale rights for Astronomy (to be traded to ND) in exchange for resale rights for Metallurgy (to be traded to Vox)...

Once we enter Industrial Era, we will have to adapt our research strategy to the free tech Voxes get. Our ultimate goal, I believe, should be Hoover Dam - whatever it takes, we should try very hard to build it, possibly before anyone else has a chance (btw, looking at the map, I believe that Legopolis is an obvious choice, unless we try something really unusual, like building it in Red Bricks, whose location noone knows).

If Voxes get Nationalism - cool, we upgrade our defenses, go for Steam Power and then Electricity, while Voxes do Medicine. We then do Scientific Method, build ToE... you know the trick.

If Voxes get Steam Power - cool, we do Electricity, and Medicine, and Scientific Method (and then as above), while Voxes work on Nationalism. Similarly for Medicine.

I know this is a bit far into the future. But if you start thinking about these plans, you will soon realize that we need to make our minds well in advance to properly time prebuilds and pre-arrange key tech trades.

Let's discuss this while there is time enough.

EDIT: ya'know... after giving it another thought, maybe building Hoover Dam in Red Bricks is not such a bad idea. Palace prebuild available (Palace costs 800 shields, the same as Hoover) - unlike in Legopolis, location completely secret... hmmm...

[Spiffor]

Well, it seems we have lost our chances to get Hoover Dam before GS, according to what I read here.

Hence, we should think of our scientific strategy with another aim than Hoover.

I suggest we aim at having bombers ASAP, and let our weaker allies (Vox and hopefully ND) research communism, espionage, medicine and sanitation on their own. it will allow us to orientate our superior economy to these expansive techs, while the others look into cheaper techs (hence giving us an opportunity to actually have a use for these partners).

Bombers can be extremely important in defending us against any navy that comes: bombers are basically invulnerable against units on the field, and they'll reduce the enemy units to 1 HP, allowing us to destroy them with minimal losses. As such, they can be an asset in the war against a coalition army, since their troops will be much more numerous than ours, and technologically on par with ours.

Besides, once we get Mass Production, we will be able to build carriers. A few full carriers can wreak havic in an enemy's economy. We can bomb his whole infrastucture to oblivion, from the relative safety of the sea. Also, with a ravaged infrastructure, the enemy will not be able to bring reinforcements from the inland to transport ships, and as such will be much less efficient in invading us. Lastly, should we be at war against GoW, but allied with ND, we could prune city defenses for the inferior troops of ND to take them without difficulty.

Besides, the path to flight will get us Destroyers, which are as strong on attack as battleships are on defense. With proper air support, these fast destroyers can rapidly destroy the escorts of invading ships.

---

For these reasons, my suggestions are as follow:
1. Research Industrialization
2. Give Industrialization to Vox and ask them to research espionage for us, once they complete Communism.
3. Ask ND (if they agree with our science pact) to research Medicine and Sanitation
4. Research the Corporation
5. Research Refining. Since most deserts on the planet are in our territory, and since there isn't any Tundra on the map, we are almost sure to have oil.
6. Research Steel
7. Research Combustion
8. Research Flight.
In the meantime, we should trade as much as possible for techs with GoW and GS. We could get replaceable parts this way (yum), opening the road to Mass Production (Carriers! )
I don't think we should trade for combustion nor flight with them. We must buy as much time as possible by not giving it to them.