DIPLO: GoW comments

[Aeson]

I'm not sure the ps is necessary to include. We should approach GoW about it, but maybe not as part of this communication. If this meets with approval I'll send it:

Greetings GhengisFarb and GoW

(I appologize if I am directing correspondance through the wrong channels)

Thank you for sending the screenshot. Many of our fears have been unjustified it seems. We will still plan for the worst, but the information you have provided us is a great comfort.

It is also with pleasure that I can inform you that our Golden Age has begun after a glorious victory over Voxian Immortals. The added commerce will allow us to research Feudalism a turn earlier than specified in the agreement and we will be able to forward it to you a turn earlier as well. We ask that the original ending of the NDA stay at the same turn as agreed upon. It will in essense be the same NDA, only the delivery of the tech happens sooner.

I hope this meets with the approval of GoW.

Regards,

Aeson

ps. RP seems to be set upon getting us into a bidding war with you to sell them Feudalism. They have told us that you are offering it at 75g after the NDA expires. Perhaps discussion about some form of profit sharing in trading this tech to RP could keep the price up enough that both our nations would profit? Otherwise the price may plumet tremendously and neither side will get even half of what it is worth.

If GoW is interested in such a proposal, please let us know.

[DeepO]

PS sounds good ce to me. The rest of the message too... but send it to both GF and Panzer32, he asked for a copy of last message you sent to GF. He is 'our' ambassador, and seems to be on our side...

DeepO

[DeepO]

Interesting responce from GoW. We definately need to go on in this thread of thought...

I would somehow mention the following things to them:
- We can understand RP (and the rest of the world) looks scared at our research rate, however we choose so far to try the peaceful approach, instead of waging war to get an advantage. This is not good for RP, as it hopes for the same thing with its vast, easily defendable territory, we're direct competitors

- So far, we had contact with other teams, and the only ones RP is really working into getting to agree with them is GoW. ND will not spend money they can save, just to please RP. Legoland sees RP as the biggest threat, and RP sees Legoland as the biggest threat (over us, as we have Vox to worry about). They are actively seeking to set all of us up against each other, by offering trade embargoes everywhere. Don't be surprised if very soon, GoW would find itself at the short end of one of RP's trade embargoes.

- How will this affect Chivalry? We can get it as first for sure, in our GA. We are not pressed to get it fast as GoW or ND are, we are not planning to invade another continent soon (if at all). But, if an embargo would be signed against us with GoW, would they still be able to trade chivalry to us? Otherwise, we would be better of researching Chivalry ourselves, and sell it (many turns before any other team can research it) to everyone interested.

- RP is cramming to correct their mistake: They thought Vox would be able to slam us back into the stone ages, however they start to realize that Vox will not do that, and because of the triggered war, and most likely the short duration of the war (no 30 turns, more like 10), we will gain more from this war then if it was not called for by them. Our GA alone will put us on top for the moment, further dividing our commerce speed from the rest of the pack

- We think that the biggest competitor to winning this game is RP, because they obviously have some dark grip on Bob, and they manage to incite wars (not only the Vox - GS war, but also a possible GoW-ND war, and a Bob-Lego war) with them staying clear of the action. So others burn resources while they simply keep on expanding and defending. If this continues, soon they will pass all (including Lego) in size.

- We have no problems whatsoever with GoW trading on Feudalism after the NDA, it was what we anticipated. But seeing as they are startting bidding wars just to get a better price (in the end only advantaging RP), talking between us (Secretly! If RP finds out, the scheme is gone) can only help us both. If for instance we could come to a minimum price of 100 gold that RP needs to pay to get Feud, refusing to sell it below that mark, and dividing whatever gains one of us would get, we both win relatively to RP, and most likely get more gold from the shared deal then if either of us would go alone, and totally underbid the competition.

- If we could get all teams we will sell Feud to to agree to a similar deal, we could keep the price of Feudalism up on 200 gold or even increase it to eg 300 gold. If RP is not able to buy it anywhere for a lower price, their scheme is failing, and everyone who does invest money to get the tech sooner would be repaid part of its initial price. So, this would advantage all first time sellers equally, instead of advantaging those who did not want to pay first, hoping to 'steal' profit later on.
For us, this would be totally acceptable: 200 gold from GoW for our 700 beakers investment now. RP refuses, but in 10 turns, still needs to pay 200 gold for the tech, and has no other option than to buy it anyway. At which time, we would get e.g. 66 gold (if there are only 2 buyers, which is not certain yet), getting e.g. 466 for 700 investment. GoW would pay 133 for Feud, (ND the same), and RP pays 200 gold, only 10 turns later. In the end, it will still mean that we bore the biggest cost (233 gold), but that's okay for us, as long as RP is not able to get it for e.g. 40 gold, which they could without any deal between GoW and GS.

- Lego might get influenced by RP too much, we hear many of RPs 'unofficial communication' reflected in their talks. If RP can secretly sign an alliance with Lego, pretending to be its biggest competitor, we're in trouble. They could focus on military expansion only, being sure to receive necesssary techs from Lego. And from what we can tell, RP is trying very hard to convince everyone of Lego's superious position, while they try to get most advantages out of it.

Maybe some other things too... but I would like to get some communicatioon going, if we could keep the price of Feud up to 200 gold (if we also include ND in this deal), we could bypass both RP, and Lego if they decide not to buy the tech from us. I absolutely do not mind that this would further help those who bought the tech from us at release, even so that through irony, they are the ones paying fewest.

DeepO

[DeepO]

BTW, it seems GoW is under the impression that ND will join the trade embargo against us, or are they implying Lego is already part of it? If the former, we should tell them ND is happily dealing with us, if the former, we should have a decent talk with Lego. I was planning on that Sunday anyway (if I ever get into the chat room), there are more then a few fishy things going on with them. I wouldn't be surprised if they already allied with RP, but for the moment I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt. We'll see next Sunday.

DeepO

[Shiber]

GoW have the turn. Shall we ask them for our intelligence shots now, or do we wait?
I'm requesting permission to ask Panzer32 if I see him in the chat. If he responds quickly and sends the shots shortly after I asked, it is more likely to assume that they're not doctoring those images (another possibility is that they already prepared the doctored shot for this turn).

[asleepathewheel]

Originally posted by Shiber
GoW have the turn. Shall we ask them for our intelligence shots now, or do we wait?
I'm requesting permission to ask Panzer32 if I see him in the chat. If he responds quickly and sends the shots shortly after I asked, it is more likely to assume that they're not doctoring those images (another possibility is that they already prepared the doctored shot for this turn).

yes, I would get them ASAP.

Why is GoW holding their save? What are they up to?

[Theseus]

I am starting to sense that providing Chivalry to GoW in return for mercenary action may become viable.

[Shiber]

Edit: wrong thread.

[nbarclay]

If GoW is dealing with us honorably, it doesn't look like we need mercenary action to help us. If they aren't, providing Chivalry in return for their help would invite a backstab that makes Vox's backstab look trivial by comparison.

[Aeson]

I can imagine the messages GoW is getting.

Vox "What is your Galley doing off our coasts?"
RP "We would deny we ever sent this message, what is your Galley doing off Vox's coasts?"
Vox "Monsoon is undefended, land your Horses there!"
RP "We would deny this message ever was sent, but we think you should know GS is asking us to form an alliance against you."
Vox "Edit in more Immortals into the shots of the stacks you are sending GS! They must fear us!"
RP "We would deny we ever sent this message, edit out all the Immortals in the shots fo the stacks you are sending! They must underestimate Vox!"
RP "We would deny we ever sent this message, but ND tells us they have signed an alliance with GS against you. Lego and Lux have also signed up!"
Vox "We are in control of GS' core, all we need from you is to hit Monsoon ASAP, we seem to have slightly overextended our reach, if Monsoon falls, GS falls!"
RP "We would deny we ever sent this message, but Vox tells us they are in desperate need of assistance. If Vox falls, GS wins the game in 2 turns!"

Or something like that.

GoW could be doing a few things: (serious now)

1. They are trying to get RP to agree to allowing them to keep up our trade agreement for 2 more turns, knowing we will be able to verify the screenshots in that timeframe. This allows them to get Feudalism ASAP, send it to Vox and RP, and start on Chivalry. They would then land their Horses as a diversionary measure. They would have to get a promise of Iron from RP. They aren't stupid enough to base their existance on whether or not Vox can take us.

2. GoW has already backstabbed us by sending us edited photos. They are now trying to deduce how Vox can move their troops without us finding out, at least until we send them Feudalism. Vox doesn't want to delay their SOD just to protect GoW's chances at getting Feudalism, RP doesn't want GoW to get Feudalism until 'they say so', and GoW doesn't want to go along with Vox's plans for landing their Horses by Monsoon to be killed (which GoW would guess would happen).

3. Of course GoW could just want to keep their agreement with us, and are taking as much time as they can to convince RP that it will help 'them' in the long run. Something like 'once we have riders, GS is dead', or keeping to the charade about Vox being able to handle us with their 36 Immortals. I think this is more likely than either of the two above.

[Shiber]

Originally posted by Aeson
It might be better for us to let him think that (sorry Shiber ) at this point though.

No problems, I actually liked last time.

[DeepO]

First of all, let's not assume GoW has been sending us edited screenshots before we are 100% sure. If they believe we can win, or at least fend of a Voxian attack until we are strong enough (and this is the case, they have seen Vox's cities and our power jump), they won't risk backstabbing us like this, certainly not after having heard our reactions to Vox's treatment of our deals.

Chivalry as payment for a contract: very interesting idea. We could provide them with Chivalry and gold instead of only 200 gold for the tech, that should make it possible for them to attack RP. However, ND is the problem factor here, if we would do that, we should also try to sell Chivalry to them, if they would use it to attack RP (whether they attack GoW too doesn't interest us). Such a deal could be wonderous, if we don't get caught as those who planned it.

DeepO

[alva]

IMO, for the moment, we should let BOB run it's course, we don't know for sure who is behind all this, no need to gamble on the wrong one with the info we have got.
With the arrival of several UU's, something is gonna happen anyway, after VoX is gone, let's sit back and see what happens and go from there.
-
Us going to Bob, would mean probably mean taking on GoW anyway.

[Theseus]

Originally posted by alva
With the arrival of several UU's, something is gonna happen anyway...

You can say that again!!

Gotta get some popcorn...

[DeepO]

last message from GoW:

They are taking it the wrong way. Please explain to them that it is no problem of them selling the tech onwards, they seem to think we take offense (which we do not).

Further: maybe they did not discuss it with RP, but RP surely discussed it with us, 1 day after the NDA was signed. Most likely, this was simply because they want us to get started on a bidding war, which we want to avoid.

trade embargo by RP: ask whether they think it's okay if RP simply demands GoW to take a certain action, which they follow blindly. The same can happen with chivalry: we would be able to get it long before any other team too.

DeepO