DIPLO: GoW comments

[alva]

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=1911315&t=6402#post1911315

Last chat with GF...

There asking to start phony war with us in order to provoke an invasion from ND.

Let the conspiracy theories begin

1. I mention honorable at least 27 times
2. I specifically to PM the deal, to have some 'official' document.
3. I deliberately mentioned, that I didn't think GS would go for it
(all of this just in case, it was (another) set-up)
4. GF was very reluctant to answer any Vox questions, he ducked them all. Is he a real-life politician ?

[Aeson]

They are taking it the wrong way.

That's what I meant by 'wearing thin'. I don't know GF well, but it seems he tends to get a 'handle' on someone and then tune out what they are saying, only picking up on the parts that he can react to.

-------------------

About the fake war... We shouldn't do it. It would be a perfect opportunity to get a leader, but definitely not honorable, and probably even as far as cheating... I think there was a 'no fake wars for leaders' rule? The war wouldn't be exactly for leaders, but it's still scewing the risk/reward a lot.

If GoW really wants to do this, they should just land a Horse without our consent. We told them specifically we would kill any troops they land, and we aren't really in any sort of position to land and hurt them (and vice versa). We can't tell them that though or it becomes the fake war again.

[alva]

We wouldn't have to kill it of course, they would only need to land and us to declare war. No blood needs to be spilled and we don't really lie to the rest (a bit of a gray area, I admit).
Hey, this happens all the time in SP, being at war with a civ a million tiles away for hundreds of years.

If they go through with it anyway, then we gain nothing, now we might get chivalry for free?

To be honest, I'm not a 100% behind this too, let's see what other people say about it

[asleepathewheel]

So they think ND is going to invade them?

I think they are listening to Senor Togas' poisoned tongue.

we have a few turns to discuss this ruse, and we shall do so. I think that GoW is going to get burned by this, and by extension so shall we. AFter all, GoW has already done this once with Vox, the other two, ND and RP could deny knowldege, since they couldnt' see port of isolation and couldnt' see the units.

Of course, there arent't that many civs left to consider their reactions....

[DeepO]

We can't do it, period. And if this ever gets an official poll, I would call a black ball vote for it. This is not exactly cheating, but it is far from being honorable, so goes against not only what we want to appear to others, but also how we play this game.

But, refusing it does not necessarily mean we can't explore options here. I for one would like to know if this really is one of their ideas, or if this was a contract on us from Vox. Vox had good contacts with GoW (mercs by definition), had cash to burn, and an over-powerful neighbour. It doesn't take long to figure out a possible connection here.

Add to this that at first, GoW was completely certain that we were wussies, and Vox would walk over us. We convinced them of our strengths, and that it would be foolish to try to invade us, as we would not be stopped in our revenge. If they had a contract on us, I'm sure that right then they'd think twice of how well much their contract was really worth it, and if their price hadn't been too low.

Really, I would like to go to the bottom of this, because it's the third thing in a row we feel funny about:
- the 'invasion' of Port isolation, afterwards proving to be a total mockup, not even one immortal landed there.
- The scouting, which might be right (actually, I think that we have them convinced of switching sides, and that for the moment they wouldn't dear to backstab their 'friends')
- Now asking us to scream war on the forum (which we're obviously good at, we might have impressed GF ), when we knew in front nothing would happen.

The problem is, we can't ask them directly, they would get upset, and we'd lose a friend, making them even more a liability to us. So instead, I would simply politely refuse, as this will never get approved by GS, not even if by technicallity we would not be required to lie.

DeepO

[asleepathewheel]

Ah good point DeepO

We suspect that Vox has a lot of gold.

We know that GoW will go to the highest bidder, its in their team charter.

GoW is bought Feudal from us and steaming towards chivalry in a crappy gov't.

GoW asks us to fake a war with them.


Connect the dots.

[DeepO]

BTW, Just to make sure, I would make it clear beyond doubt that if they do attack us, we will be at war. If this was a contract, they would by honor be required to land troops, and so will go ahead, maybe hoping to buy peace back later for about the same price as they were going to offer us now.

A possible price is tempting, if only because this would give us a reason to later invade Bob, and maybe have an ally, wishing to break whatever Bobian pact is protecting the continent from invaders.

DeepO

[Shiber]

I'm definitely against this, but I wouldn't tell them that right away. I'd like to hear what they have to offer first, and if they really care about this they'd make an offer soon. However, if they don't, send the most polite refusal possible.
If we're lucky, this just might turn in our advantage. GoW might feel that they offered us a nasty deal, and that we need to be appeased by the next deal.

[DeepO]

We can't ask them for more info, for the simple reason that we have to be very to the point and direct. refusal the next message that gets sent.

Were they going to put this in official format first, or are we simply going to refuse it before waiting on that? I would be swift, even if it denies us future possibilities.

DeepO

[vulture]

I'm trying to get up to speed on the current situation, so there's probably a lot I don't know yet. But is there any possibility of tying our future feudalism deal with GoW to a) a non aggression pact and b) a declaration of this by them in the public forum - if we are worried that they might be working for/with Vox. Or at least suggesting the possibility to them.

If they haven't been bought by GoW then they have no reason not to go for this (given that they have plenty of room to expand - time is on their side - and will be facing war on Bob at some point surely), whereas if they are in a deal with Vox then they would either have to turn it down (giving away their intentions) or accept. Accepting means they have either to break our deal publically (which will harm their reputation as mercenaries) or break their deal with Vox, which would help us and harm their reputation less (since they could claim that Vox were trying to discredit them, and they never really had a deal).

Suggesting this to them, even if the deal never happens, might at least provoke an informative reaction (if done in a real-time kind of environment like a chat room, rather than by email), where a fairly positive "sounds good but we'll have to check with the team" is good but a more cautious "I'll have to check with the team and get back to you" might indicate complications.

BTW how much scope have Vox had to sneak units into their southern town (Dissidentville) in preperation for the war? Or were Grog et al scouting for that possibility.

Dumb question: what became of the Vox second landing on Bob which they made such a noise about publically last week. Was that an attempt at a ploy to make us think they weren't going for us?

[asleepathewheel]

Vulture:

the deal with feudalism is already done, too late to add stuff to it.

the second vox-bob landing never ocurred, it was a ruse

gow is spying on the road from d'ville to elioplis, but it might be faked

we have learned recently (within the last several hours) that 8 immortals have moved out of d'ville. makes 13 on the map that we can see. very dangerous

grog saved our skins, preventing an earlier attack.

vox made a fatal (hopefully ) error by landing the two immortals to the east, killle by a warchariot (elite!) that triggered our GA. currently we are scrambling to find a plan to counter.

very dicey

[asleepathewheel]

IS it odd that GoW has been silent for a few days?

A war is coming on Bob, we know that, what we don't know is who will fight whom. We know that currently GoW has no iron, they did have a supply but it is now in ND's cultural border. I'm thinking that we might consider establishing an embassy with GoW, it shouldn't be too expensive, to see where will be getting their iron from in the future. If they are getting their iron from RP, which I suspect is the purpose for each having harbors, then ND (or us) will be targeted.

Of course, before we do this, we should figure out if Vox has given out their map with our capital revealed, which they at least have given it to RP probably, as we don't want it out yet. If they do know, then it would only cost us 50 or so gold.

[notyoueither]

59 gold as of the current turn.

[Shiber]

Pending approval.
I was thinking of adding some intelligence about RP (I have no moral problems whatsoever with exposing the contents of diplomatic PMs if they turn out to be lies) but then I realized that they haven't asked for any. If we would send them info that appears as intelligence when they haven't asked for it, it would seem like we're trying to feed them with that info to further our own goals (which is not far from the truth ).

Also, is there anything that we want to ask them about?

Hot_Enamel, respected consul of the Glory of War,

First of all, I would like to apologize for not having replied sooner. As you can imagine, discussions within GS are concerned more with our military aims rather than diplomatic matters, with the last turn thread reaching an impressive 164 posts. I got swiped with all the excitement of strategical planning and neglected my duties as temporary ambassador to GoW. Please accept my most sincere apologies.

Now, to the matter at hand. I understand that you have requested us to assist you with some kind of 'ruse', to fool Neu Demogyptica into thinking that you are busy attacking us and launch their own attack on GoW, only to realize that you were well prepared for their attack. I applaud your thinking and creativity, but I'm afraid that my team cannot assist you with this operation. Since the beginning of the game, my teammates and I have sworn to play honestly. As a result, Gathering Storm has turned down any ideas and plans that involve dishonesty, and will make no exceptions - not even with our close friends GoW.

I am sorry if this spoils your plans to some degree, but I urge you to understand that my friends and I will not deviate from the moral code that we have all signed upon under any circumstances. However, I would be happy to discuss anything else that we can do to help your team.

Finally, I would like to personally thank you for your assistance to the GS Army's Department of Military Intelligence. Your information regarding sightings of Vox military units proved to be most valuable in assessing our situation, and our chief images analyzers and myself would like to thank you personally for your help.

Respectfully,
Shiber, temporary Gathering Storm ambassador to Glory of War.

CC: GhengisFarb, respected leader of Glory of War.

Edit: message edited, comments by Alva taken into account.

[alva]

Damn, lost my post, I'll try to recreate it...

First of all, I would like to apologize for not having replied sooner.

I specifically asked them to send us their request as a PM, something they didn't do, therefore we can hardly be late. I would leave it in though, perhaps mention it.

Since the beginning of the game, we have sworn to play honestly. My teammates and myself have turned down any ideas and plans that involve lying,

I don't think we want to step on anyone toes for the moment, perhaps 'imaginative', 'creative' will do the trick .
-
3. I think DeepO posted it somewhere to remind them that landing their units will be a declaration of war.
4. Be sure to thank them for the screenshots, blahblah