Radical Idea

[DeepO]

At least wait for more input, this is not something we can decide with less then half the members present.

NYE, I agree that we were beginning to show interest in their territory, and I don't feel bad about that. At that point, it was becoming clear that we were not made to be military brothers, and this has not changed because they are becoming submissive at once.

As to the comment of them offering it to someone else: I can see who, and it's not Lego. GoW is such an obvious choice, it's scary. A combined Vox-GoW force would certainly be able to harm us, and they will most likely get Feudalism from them anyway, maybe even for free. (or RP pays GoW to give it to Vox, the possibilities are endless). But would GoW go for it? I doubt it, not without backing of the rest of Bob. And who would back them, if they are at the brink of conquering another continent for themselves?

No, this deal can't work with Gow, nor with anyone else, we're the only choice for Vox. But I can see them thinking it will succeed.

Besides, how trustworthy are Vox, if they are already thinking on offering their services to someone else? It's not that they have a record of being trustworthy...

DeepO

[Shiber]

I'm 99% sure that Vox will sit on the save until they receive our answer or until their time runs out.
Normally I'd want to wait for all of our active members to respond (SR, Arrian, Theseus, Nathan, Aeson, Vel, Vulture... did I forget anyone?), but with such overwhelming opposition, I'm inclined towards sending a response earlier.
Then again, they might not contact any other teams before they get a definite answer from us. This means that if we can stall them until their time runs out, they won't be able to begin negotiations before they've played this turn.
But come to think about it - do we really want to try to harm their efforts to achieve a similar deal with another team? I mean, considering their opportunistic nature, their bad micro-management and the diplomatic damage that they'll cause to their new "masters", not to mention all the headaches and trouble that they bring along with them, perhaps we should actually want them to become vassals of Lego, for instance?

Proposed message to my "Vox contact":

Your offer has been rejected unanimously.
Please don't ask Legoland to delay their turn to give us more time to "think this over", we've already made up our minds.
Thank you.

Ahh, Vox Controli... NEIGHBOURS FROM HELL!!!

[DeepO]

Okay, sorry Shiber, if I misunderstood you. And yes, I did smile more then once when reading the messages... but I agree with NYE that we need to give it some serious thought before dismissing it.

if they plead for peace publicly, we can simply say: "Sorry, we cannot risk that. You have crossed us before, now bear the consequences. In our eyes, it still is tense, and we do not intend to keep this tension going for the rest of this game. You declared war, now fight like a man."

DeepO

[asleepathewheel]

If they plead for peace in the public, we demand up to and including Elipolis. They have to pay us something in tribute, I'm sure that others will agree. And that might just backfire on them, no one likes a whiner who is trying to worm their way out of a defeat.

[notyoueither]

I darted home for 'lunch'. The log is posted.

Hmmm, left over KFC...

[notyoueither]

So, if they sue publically, and we demand up to and including Eliopolis... and they say 'yes', then what?

We turn down the chance for them to switch targets and they get peace.

Calling this a blood feud to the death because they attacked us, when we let slip to some others that we would likely attack Vox is going to win us lots of friends, I'll bet.

[alva]

If they public, our answer should be short: N O !!!
(j/k)
My answer would be something like: We have no interest in holding these talks on the public forum.

Simple as that.

[Aeson]

I would go for peace with Vox. A FP in Arashi and cities up to the bottleneck will give us the most effective empire by far at this point, probably up till the Industrial era. We'd just have to make sure we leverage that into a conquest on BOB by that time. (beeline for Military Tradition?)

For it to be acceptable to me:

Vox would need to give us up to the bottleneck.

Allow us to keep bombarding their units in our territory until they have withdrawn (it won't kill them, and gives us a measure of safety if they renege).

No talks about military alliances against BOB.

--------

Then we can maybe still build the Collosus in Hurricane, get the FP up ASAP in Arashi, an Aquaduct in Tempest... stuff that is going to help us in relation to all the other civs, instead of just building up military.

[FrustratedPoet]

Well, I certainly wouldn't see it as a "blood feud".

I don't want us to wipe out Vox because they betrayed us. I want us to wipe out Vox because I want us to have their land. It's that simple. IMHO that was the reason why we were going to attack them before, and it's still the reason we're planning to attack them now.

[DeepO]

Well, if they give us all up to, and including Elipolis, I would agree too. But without immediate talks about invading Bob... that wouldn't do us any good either, publicly.

It would accomplish our goals, for the moment, and would be an essential win. However, we need more guarantees, we can't simply give them time to rebuild, while we switch to full expansion mode again.

The Collosus is lost, IMHO, but we might have a decent shot at Leo's, which is just as nice.

BTW, that was a good chat, nye. It gained a bit more info on how Vox sees things, especially to the relations on Bob. But I still think that if we declare peace, it would give Bob more reason to unite against us, and that would not be a good thing with UUs coming up.

DeepO

[notyoueither]

If we take all of Vox, will not Bob unite against us?

[DeepO]

And "blood feud": Hmmm... maybe. But we can't lose face either... if we appear to weak, or without spine, people will think about that too.

DeepO

[DeepO]

nye: yes, probably. But we can't take Vox before at least some war breaks out on Bob, after which the damage may have been done. If ND and RP engage in war, they will not be likely to help each other out, even if it is against us.

Togas is a fine diplomat, but I don't think he is well liked in many teams.

DeepO

[notyoueither]

I agree that peace cannot be tied to an alliance.

However, an alliance would be a very good by-product later. We will want to go to Bob eventually. Going 2 vs 3, or gettiing one of Bob to switch to make it 3 vs 2 would make a big difference.

[Aeson]

I just read through your chat log NYE, and I get the impression they want an alliance to 'pay off' (getting land on BOB) before giving up the land to us.