Radical Idea

[asleepathewheel]

Originally posted by Aeson
I just read through your chat log NYE, and I get the impression they want an alliance to 'pay off' (getting land on BOB) before giving up the land to us.

that was the impression that I got as well. Of course, that would be unacceptable to us. Sure, we'll let you keep everything for now, and if you take anything on bob, we will get blah blah. yeh right.

[notyoueither]

It is possible that that is their intent. Of course, that is unacceptable.

What strikes me is that they are mentally preparing to give up. Also, further reinforcement of the fact that they just want to continue to participate. It is my opinion that their attack on us was just about guaranteed when Bob united to keep them off. Combine that with us not seeming to be very enthusiastic about romping on Bob and then making noises about the tech agreement and... as a good play they had no choices.

Oh. Last thing is confirmation that they are getting support from other civs.

[DeepO]

Well... they are still underestimating us. I wouldn't mind stalling them for 2 or 3 turns, and really do some damage to them. They still don't realize that even with help from their 'friends', they are essentially lost.

I wouldn't even mind waiting until we take D-ville, or build Inchon, at that moment they have reason to be submissive, and won't start asking about alliances anymore...

DeepO

[DeepO]

Well, I wouldn't mind keeping them in the game, and to do that, they need more then 1 city... It's not that I hate the team, or something like that, but it's a fine line between having a possible backstabbing partner, and a vasal. I'd rather have the latter, if I can choose

DeepO

[alva]

/me makes a note never to date DeepO girlfriend behind his back

[DeepO]

Sorry if I have to play the hawk here

I was just thinking on the log again, and realised something interesting: Beta said that GoW landing where they did put them in an awkward position.... very strange comment, and easy to miss. Basically, it would mean that GoW invading was certainly a joined effort between Vox and GoW, but something went wrong, possibly with timing. Vox could have simply ignored the landing, and continued to whatever goal they had in mind, instead of spreading out, and putting 2 smaller stacks on the flats, leaving one stack without clear goal.

They now realize it was a mistake, as we were able to destroy all of their flat troops, and indeed, if they had waited one turn before splitting off, they could have been at the forking position, which would have made it a lot harder for us to both destroy GoW, and all of their troops. We might still have kept our cities, but at least it would have been closer.

So, who are the 'friends' of Vox? We need 2, and one is certainly GoW. The other one has long been thought to be RP. And Vox claim GoW and ND are close, while ND and RP would allegedly not talk to each other.

Or, RP was simply a ruse from GoW, as they provided us with this information, and the payment at the time could simply have been payment for tech. Which means ND, with their 3 week stall on Feudalism is a likely candidate... maybe we shouldn't attack RP anyway.

And of course, there is always Legoland, who might not be so builder-like as they seem... they could very well have smelled the intrigue, and decided to put some oil on the fire too. Weren't they the first ones to ask publicly if we and Vox weren't playing a ruse? This sounds very similar to Togas' "We will deny we send you this" messages....

Argh... the paranoia! I think it's about time to get some diplomatic contacts going again, so we can at least find out what others think about the situation! however, it's about time to go to bed for me, I need to leave early tomorrow (well, before noon anyway), and shouldn't be back until Sunday night.. no chats for me with Legoland

DeepO

[nbarclay]

I posted what I would view as acceptable terms for peace a few turns back. Basically, they abandon Elipolis, we build a city on the hill beside it so we can park a big force of pikes behind hill city walls in case Vox tries a doublecross, and Vox pays our upkeep expenses on that pike force. And, of course, we get all points south.

In exchange, we could provide Vox with iron as long as a resource disappearance wouldn't force us to do without, and we could promise to give Vox whatever tech we can without undercutting our efforts to make good deals with other teams. (We aren't going to pay extra just because other teams make us pay the cost for Vox to get the tech too, though.) And when and assuming we view the time as right for military operations elsewhere in the world, Vox would certainly be welcome to join us and claim some land for themselves.

Even on those terms, I view offering peace as more or less a break-even proposition, something that could be either good or bad for us depending on whether Vox decides to doublecross us again, on the future of the war, and on whether we could finish off Vox and have adequate forces to take advantage of the situation before war breaks out on Bob.

The real tragedy is that if Vox had been more trustworthy, and if we had realized how well-armed they really were, I for one would have viewed them as an extremely valuable potential partner if war erupts on Bob. But now, any possibility of partnershiip is horribly tainted by the fact that they deliberately lied to us in order to set up an attack on us. For me, it has nothing to do with revenge, but rather with how extraordinarily difficult it is to form a viable agreement when one side cannot be trusted to keep its end.

Nathan

[DeepO]

Originally posted by nbarclay
For me, it has nothing to do with revenge, but rather with how extraordinarily difficult it is to form a viable agreement when one side cannot be trusted to keep its end.

I agree, that words it well.

DeepO

[Theseus]

I'l be the ultra-hawk.

Screw Vox. They lied, and they will die. I refuse to ally with a backstabber.

To the extent we start switching over to fastmovers, i am not so worried about a)the use of GA shields and the long-term implications on building, or b) defending our continent should the bobians, orthers, cast a greedy eye in our direction.

Again... Vox burns to the ground, and we conduct arcane rituals about the demise of our ancient enemy forevermore.

[nbarclay]

Does anyone actually have strong feelings in favor of finding a way for Vox to survive?

[asleepathewheel]

Originally posted by nbarclay
Does anyone actually have strong feelings in favor of finding a way for Vox to survive?

There are two ways that I could live with Vox surviving

1. exiled to some island, perhaps little bob or maybe a city on legoland.

or

2. The team is destroyed but the spirit of vox lives on in other teams. Teams other than GS of course.

[alva]

Having at least one Vox member coming to GS wouldn't hurt us.

[asleepathewheel]

Originally posted by alva
Having at least one Vox member coming to GS wouldn't hurt us.

No, I agree. One is ok. There are some that I think would be unwelcome here, but they would likely find homes elsewhere if they wanted.

[alva]

I think it a pity to eliminate any team from this game, but such is it's nature, so no strong feelings on taking them out .

[DeepO]

Now who are the hawks here

Oh well... for me it's the same. I don't particularly like the idea of allying with them, however I could settle for peace (but preferably after we cut their wings some more, too dangerous otherwise). But an absolute demand for me is that we gain access to the Neck, either by getting Elipolis, or by letting them disband it, and we building a city on the hill next to it like Nathan suggested. As said, they are still underestimating us, and to have easier diplomatic negotiations, I wouldn't mind continuing this war for at least a couple of turns.

As to them needing a refuge: both options fine for me. I don't have very strong feelings to keep them in the game, but I don't intend to get us in a crazy 'Kill the last Voxian settler' game either. And if they want to become our vasals, fine by me, but only after they are seriously reduced in size, or the risk would be too much.

DeepO