Dark Day for Demo Gaming

[Grandpa Troll]

Originally posted by Ljube



Wait for what?

For all questions to be answered my friend

Are you planning to play the save? Are you still debating what to do? How long do we have to wait for you to decide?

I honestly feel Ljube and as a member of the Great BOH, I would hope all other come forward and say here we are, Leader Paddy and all the generals, we come admitting that not only "wrong" but the "appearance of wrongdoing" should be addressed

I thought this thing was resolved by exposing James the Scot and punishing him as he deserved.

Ljube

I feel the BOH stand for honor

as a man of Honor, Integrity and indomitable spirit it simply stands out as the prudent thing to do


It almost appears to me that I may be in the minority in the BOH, I wont say for sure but I dont see other BOH standing saying to the Apolyton Community, WAIT..we have all the duty and honor to share that we know we had a problem and yes we run a clean house inspite of the actions of the involved member, but I dont see this..not even a little bit

true not all members are about but I know for a fact several are and they have not stepped forward

Treating us differently than other teams, expecting that we make amends. That is the second wrong.

I dont see this Ljube

I see a community policing itself

What I also see is a horrendous response from several aspects.

flames wars

name calling

childish behavior

Failure to full cooperate to start repairing a trust among brethren

Thats my take on this

Bruce K. Cronkite a.k.a. Grandpa Troll

[Grandpa Troll]

Originally posted by Ljube
OK Ming, tell us what you expect from us.

He has stated my brother we should cooperate and when asked to divulge information do so

In spite of feeling no guilt in this matter, for the greater good of my team and the whole community I'm prepared to do what you deem necessary to restore trust. What say you?

I feel guilt that my team has not immediatly shown the community who we are, stand up men

lead the way

not be concerned with a game but with the image not necessarily that we are or are not guilty beyond the punishment rendered to James but provide direct answers

Im asking and yes imploring as a member just like you that our Horde lead the way and just step forward, tell the community we can handle inquistions we have thick skin and no we have nothing to hide and to prove it please review what you will

[Ljube]

OK, I want to do my part in restoring trust. But I don't know how.

I want to answer all questions. But I was asked none.


And one more thing. Community policing itself will never work. There will always be someone who would resort to creating DLs for the purpose of his own fun, spying or whatever and in the end ruin the game for all. The only thing that will work is community preventing this from happening and that can only be if rules were accepted that only prince and higher ranks could join closed forums. This looks harsh and discriminatory, but it's the only way.

[Grandpa Troll]

Originally posted by Ljube
OK, I want to do my part in restoring trust. But I don't know how.

I want to answer all questions. But I was asked none.

ok

I dont know who should answer for the Horde but I will start

It was my understanding we asa team were asked to look at either saves or posts within the forum

this was asked and I dont think its too out of line myself..clear the air..no dirty laundry who cares

And one more thing. Community policing itself will never work. There will always be someone who would resort to creating DLs for the purpose of his own fun, spying or whatever and in the end ruin the game for all. The only thing that will work is community preventing this from happening and that can only be if rules were accepted that only prince and higher ranks could join closed forums. This looks harsh and discriminatory, but it's the only way.

Ok

policing wont legislate morality and virtue and honor but its better than nothing I suppose

as for your idea of ranking being a minimum acceptance criteria, its a start, Im not totally oppossed to this just saying its a possible way to help prevent this Ljube

Ok

we have a start in the journey Ljube

Thanks


Like a wise man once said

all journeys begin with the first step

another wise man stated we all walk in the path of those who have gone before us.

I stand with my Brother Ljube and maybe more will come

[Beta]

Originally posted by Ljube
OK, I want to do my part in restoring trust. But I don't know how.

I want to answer all questions. But I was asked none.

Yes you were:

To clarify what I was looking for:

One member, myself, would have a limited time access to BOH. I have promised that I would avoid any discussions related to the upcoming civ4 game, and any theme or trash talking threads (as in "Isn't that Beta an A$$, volumes 1, thru 4. )

My intent would be to research several in game incidences that help triggered our suspicions in the first place, sticking strictly to correspondence, turn, or strategy discussion threads. I am looking to satisfy myself that indeed, no relevant information that the DL had access to was passed back through to BOH. IMHO, this would clearly allow us to re-establish 100% trust and move past this. I am not, in any way, looking to obtain an in-game advantage. I am looking at history, and we have committed to 25 turns of peace anyways, so I trust there are no immediate war plans.

And yes this would require that you trust me - trust me not to wander around the forum willy-nilly - trust me to move past stuff which is not relevant - and trust my intent here. But given the situation we find ourselves in, I do not think this is asking too much, particularly when juxtaposed against the trust you are now asking of the community.

As I stated a number of times in the chat last night - my concern here is for both Apolyton and BOH - yes BOH and all its members. Other than some team healing and reflection which has to occur, Babylon is not a concern. This is not a matter of making amends, or "balancing the books" in some way. My proposal is made for the good of the community.

That being said, I know that Plato and Paddy and CM were not keen on this idea. Furthermore, I am under no illusion that I am going to find a thread or post that says: "Latest information from the DL Planet." But my team and others have record of enough suspicious events or coincidental occurrences; in other words, the extent of the circumstantial evidence is compelling. I agree that each situation, on its own, could be explained by coincidence, good luck, or good planning. Taken together, I think not.

Furthermoe, information from Planet via James need not be shared in the forum to still be usefull in the game. Chats, email and conversations between/amongst members would all suffice.

So to that end, the access to the forum is both investigative and symbolic in its intent.

I respect both of you - Ljube and Gramps - for coming forward. You have used different styles, but it is clear that your intents are the same - to clear the air and move forward. Paddy once told me that all 17 members of BOH were active and weighed in weekly. That leaves 14, excluding James. I am not suggesting that we are asking for each member to bare their soul and post on this matter; but it certainly would be healthy for the discussion if we could hear others' views, concerns and emotions.

And on the matter of new members and access to demo games, my position is clear. Apolyton has and always will be a welcoming and open community. So to ensure that new members are not 'restricted' by the events of this game, I am pushing for reconciliation, a solution, and continuance.

If this game dies because of this issue, we have all lost.

[Grandpa Troll]

well put Beta

[Ljube]

Beta, reconciliation in this situation will not prevent future occurrences of DLs. I wish to devise a mechanism that will prevent that deplorable practice.

I offer two possibilities:

1) Qualification per number of posts,
2) Responsibility of the Team Leaders receiving the questionable member.

The second point means that if you discover a DL spy in your team, it's your own fault.

This I say because IP screening is only available to admins, while keys to the forums are available to team captains who can react much easier and faster than forum admins and mods.

Please understand that this event has completely ruined the game and the whole experience for me. I do not wish anything similar to happen again.

About Apolyton being welcoming and open community, well, let those eager to participate in demo games first attain some rank by posting on topic about strategy, or general things and only then be admitted to the demo games that take several months and involve scores of committed people.


About opening our forum to you, I started a poll on that an hour ago. Let's see how it works out.

[Ming]

Originally posted by Ljube
Beta, reconciliation in this situation will not prevent The second point means that if you discover a DL spy in your team, it's your own fault.

I don't know... I would think that the person who created the DL, then joined the other team was the one at fault... Isn't that the cheater?

I personally find the whole, the victim is at fault thing, seriously disturbing. Is a woman who gets raped at fault for trying to look nice?

I would think the primary responsibility would fall on the team leader to keep THEIR TEAM FROM CHEATING...

[Ljube]

Ming, I don't say that Beta is in fault in this instance. My suggestion is for the future.

Also, how do you expect a team leader can control his members if one of them wishes to create a DL? Team leaders don't have the ability to check IPs.

[Beta]

Ljube - I cannot buy the premise that accepting new members that turn out to be DL's should somehow be that teams fault. If we stuck to simply accepting 'tried and true' members, or members with a certain post count (which incidentally - are not the same thing - it simply means someone may have to work harder and longer at creating a viable DL), then the community could get small rather quickly.

Everyone was new to the forum at sometime. And in my case, I joined specifically for the MP demo game - the first PTWDG.

I appreciate your comment about this event ruining the whole game. You are not alone in that. A number of others have expressed similar views. That is why we are trying to salvage it in some way.

[Ljube]

So, you are suggesting that we keep accepting any settler that comes forward?

OK, then this will happen over and over again. Not worth my time I must say.

[Beta]

Originally posted by Ljube
So, you are suggesting that we keep accepting any settler that comes forward?

That has been the practice in the demo games to-date, and this is the first occurrence AFAIK, of an issue. The matter of DL's has been in most demogame guidelines.

I also think a strong admin presence, something which was heavily debated at the start of this game, is helpful.

[Ljube]

Post deleted. Sent to Beta in a PM.

[Beta]

And responded.

[Paddy]

I apologise that this has dragged on.

OPD and Beta will both have access in the coming 30 minutes.