Revolution.

[Captain]

This poll is invalid.

[Timeline]

Originally posted by Captain
This poll is invalid.

Is that coming from Captian, or Justice Captian?

Or both?

[Harovan]

It doesn't need to be a judge to see, that this poll is biased and thus invalid.

"No. I like immature kids who can't get things done. I want this game to go on for years with 1 turn per turnchat." <-- is that prove enough?

[DAVOUT]

This poll is a metaphore ; instead of burning the government building, probably at the cost of numerous human lives, Uber opened a new thread which obviously cannot meet the intricacies of a law entirely conceived to serve the best interests of the potents.

[Captain]

Davout,
Uber himself is the one who has pushed most strongly for laws to "serve the best interests of the potents" as you say. Are you unaware that he is one of them? And that he, more than any other, pushed most strongly for not making polls binding on ministers?

Simply put, I find your conclusion that the laws are entirely conceived to serve the best interests of the potents to be faulty. If that was so, what would it benefit Uber himself to challenge the laws that serve his interests?

Timeline, as Sir Ralph says, it doesn't take a Judge to see it.

This thread is a fine place to vent frustrations and hopefully come up with more constructive solutions - however, no one should be fooled into thinking that this poll or its results should be taken seriously.

Take this as my personal opinion. Judicial opinion is always withheld until such a time as it is necessary for the Court to intervene (namely when a case is brought forth, if it should have to come to that ).

[Kuciwalker]

Uber's ideas are actually from me (though changed in a few particulars, none important). Look in the third post in this thread.

[Kuciwalker]

No, this poll is not invalid. It has an end date.

[Apocalypse]

Originally posted by skywalker
No, this poll is not invalid. It has an end date.

That isn't the argument. The problem is that it is biased. Of course, since when have revolutions care about the CoL?

[Epistax]

I know it's useless to quote it, but hey, why not.

Fairness and Neutrality:
The first post in a poll thread should be completely neutral. No options are to be suggested for voting, just what each option entails in an unbiased format. The same is true for the voting options.

Invalidity of a Poll:
If these rules are not abided by, anyone may consider the poll invalid. If someone believes a poll to not be following these rules and declares it invalid, then a vote may be conducted among the elected officials listed above to be either ‘valid’ or ‘invalid’. If the poll is deemed invalid, then its results cannot be used for any official purposes regarding the game. A poll deemed invalid cannot be voted on again unless it abides by the rules regarding a repoll.

As a citizen, I thus declare the poll invalid. If there is opposition to this, the ministers may vote between themselves on whether or not the poll is valid.


Let this poll to rest and let's get down to business.

[DAVOUT]

Originally posted by Captain
Davout,
Uber himself is the one who has pushed most strongly for laws to "serve the best interests of the potents" as you say. Are you unaware that he is one of them? And that he, more than any other, pushed most strongly for not making polls binding on ministers?

Simply put, I find your conclusion that the laws are entirely conceived to serve the best interests of the potents to be faulty. If that was so, what would it benefit Uber himself to challenge the laws that serve his interests?

It just that Uber implicitly recognizes that he was wrong ! There is probably some good in the ultimate depth of his evil soul.

The best interests of the potent where suggested to me by the children, the mothers, the wifes, the fathers, the husbands who where murdered by legal orders made by legal authorities under the pop rush policy. The speech delivered by your President in those occasions adds disgust to crime, and demonstrate the monstrous hypocrisy of your so called democratic laws. You said faulty ?

[Captain]

I will offer this:

The law was and continues to be conceived with the best interests of the Democracy Game in mind. This is not a solo game, it is a community. As such, the laws are intended to ensure and increase fairness, smoothness, and fun for ALL participants. It is a balancing act - for instance, ensuring that all citizens are given a voice (fairness) is sometimes at odds with alowing ministers to get on with the game (smoothness), and for some citizens, more fun means more involvement in decision-making while for other citizens, more fun means playing turns quicker even if it results in decreased involvement.

That the law sometimes fails to achieve its objectives, is not a failure of intent. Created by people, from all around the world, with different goals, perspectives, and philosophies (control freak totalitarians to lax laissez-faire libertarians), it's a wonder we've agreed on what we have so far. That we have, is a remarkable achievement, and one that should not be discarded at whim because of a bad experience with one turnchat.

Every game has rules, to ensure consistency and to regulate behaviour according to acceptable norms. The rules, though sometimes appearing overly complex, are what allow the game to function at all. Without rules (written and unwritten), anyone could do anything - including playing ahead - and acceptable behaviour would not be regulated according to fairness but according to personality, popularity, personal connections, and power (what they can get away with). Only under the law is there the potential for all to be treated equitably. It may fail at times, but without it, there would be even more chaos and injustice.

When you've got this many people all with their own opinions on how the game should be played and more joining every week, we need consistent rules on how to change those previously agreed upon rules in a fair and smooth manner, namely, the Amendment procedure. For people to call for revolution when they are displeased, overhauling the system according to their personal tastes while deliberately discarding the careful consensus achieved by the community over the past three months, is inflammatory, reckless, and not befitting a minister of government who has a duty to serve the interests of the public who elected him.

[Proserpine]

As this seems to have come out of nowhere, I will read it all later & decide how to vote.

Having read Uber's post of the chatlog, possibly he is overreacting a little but it does seem that there is considerable dissatisfaction amongst some ministers. Other threads (e.g. the one re turnchat times) also suggest that possibly some changes are needed.

[Captain]

Davout,

What was the result of the pop-rush poll?

Not that it matters, since Ministers are not bound to obey official polls by the COL! but that was democratically decided upon. At the time, people felt the ministers could be trusted - and for the most part, they are a trustworthy lot. Also, forcing obeisance to polls may make the ministerial jobs more difficult as the public may not be as acutely aware of changing circumstances as the ministers are.

But would I like this amended? Yes! of course, but there hasn't been sufficient public support for this yet.

I was typing away so I didn't see your message, but the one I just posted above shows that sometimes, the fairness of giving equal voice to all citizens must be balanced with the unfairness of transferring increased power and authority to the ministers - in order to allow the game to function smoothly (enough to maintain interest and fun). This may allow authorities with increased powers to abuse those powers, but that is why we are still trying to formulate impeachment laws to guide in the removal of corrupt officials. Do contribute if you are interested. See the Impeachment thread. It is all a balancing act, and sometimes, such horrors as experienced with the devastating unprovoked surprise attack on our American neighbours, or the atrocities committed towards our own people in slave labour, do happen - whether by the bloodlust of the public, or the goal-oriented fixations of our ministers.

[DAVOUT]

Such an offer cannot be refused, I take the whole of it.
Fortunately, the arguments used in the defense of a criminal are not limited by law.

[Inverse Icarus]

Originally posted by Tassadar5000
This is so sad. I'm sorry, but when everything starts ripping apart.....Did any of the other democracy games in either Poly or CFC do this? Why is it happening here?!

I'm beginning to highly doubt this demo game. It seems as if theirs arguement after arguement about almost everything. The game has almost boiled down to internal political manuvering and has become so boring and unfun that I almost see no reason to stay other than to try to amend things which probably cannot be amended.

I'm sorry, but I've put quite some time and effort into this demo game (although not as much as other people, I still have my fair share) and to see it all just rip apart because of some turnchat or some party or some poll just really annoys me. Should I continue to stay here knowing full well that something else is just going to happen, something else exactly like this?

Instead of calling for revolutions and acting immature about someone who was acting immature, lets try to pass RESOLUTIONS and REFORM in a PEACEFUL manner. If we all continue to insult each other the democracy game seems more like a political debate on the US Fox News Channel and it becomes so unfun.

If we try to change things in a way thats 1) immature, 2) unconsitituional and 3) just plain rude, we lose focus on what the demo game is about. Its about uniting apolytonians who like civ3 to play it with other apolytonians who like civ3. If theres something wrong, then polietly post about it. No need to start insulting each other. It really makes whoever is throwing it look just as bad (if not worse) then the person their insulting.

So in short, uber shut the **** up, everyone get along with each other, and lets work together to make this demo game fun again. This certainly isnt fun. Writing this post isnt fun. Having to write the post isnt fun. So just STOP flinging mud and insults. Please. I'm sick and tired of it and I'm sure a lot of other people are as well.

Sorry if I sounded a little.....frustrated.

Tassadar

exactly. endless debates on issues that probably wont be amended anyway. upheaval is the only way. and it saves a lot of time.