Revolution.

[Epistax]

I voted yes, but yes as in change is needed. Not as a separatist movement.

I recommended fixing up the COL with a series of amendments including but not limited to

* Deputies
* Instant removal from office non-active ministers
* Turn chat rules, info ahead

[Kramerman]

Originally posted by Epistax
I voted yes, but yes as in change is needed. Not as a separatist movement.

I recommended fixing up the COL with a series of amendments including but not limited to

* Deputies
* Instant removal from office non-active ministers
* Turn chat rules, info ahead

the impeachment amendment we are working on isnt going to be instant action, but it is time efficient.

[Inverse Icarus]

Sir Ralph and myself were actually trying to communicate REVELANT ideas to you people right before you started makign cracks about resigning.

EDIT:
We were ALSO talking about the city planning, as you can see right before the resigning, me and ralph were talking about where the warriors should be built.

[Ninot]

yeah, and so were Spiffor and myself

but Spiffor, Timeline, SirRalph and myself, none of us declared everything immature and left early. We stuck it out and made the turnchat work, something you didnt do.

We had roughly 20 seconds of JOKING about resignation... which you left pretty much immediately afterwards, even tho we clearly statted we were having fun...and then as soon as you left, we had already reached a conclusion on plans

your lack of patience in that respect is the only reason why you left the chat with such bad impressions. if you would have stayed, you would have seen how a team is supposed to work, and we would have had more turns finished.

[Inverse Icarus]

you did not sit through an hour of timeline "joking around". an hour of turnchat no no turns. the resignation incident was just the last straw.

[Ninot]

I wasn't at the entire turnchat the reason for Timeline taking control.

Now, I was informed upon ariving that there was a problem with the tech whoring, NOT Timelines fault

and when the turn got underway, Timeline was doing a fine job and the only incident that arrised was that Punkbass was not present, and we had to make decisions for him

at which point YOU up and left. Not very responsible of an elected minister who we count on, now is it?

Timeline did no irreparible harm, or harm that is very significant. The only harm that has been done is that which was caused by Punkbass. You overreacted, and the turnchat payed for it by being shorter. Not very responsible.

So far, this thread has produced the idea of less ministers, and a way to distribute the duties of the City Planner. After that, what else am I to see?

[Inverse Icarus]

The turnchat Officially started 15:11 EST.

I'd like you to note that the techwhoring project was completed around 15:25 (when Ninot showed up) It only took about 14 minutes.

Then the question of what to research came up, and i suggested a quickpoll, because Apoc was absent.

This is pretty standard procedure, is it not? Whenever a minister is absent and hasn't set a minion to monitor his post, we do a quickpoll.

We developed a quickpoll, and Timeline told me not to do it. Many of the people were asking for a quickpoll so that we could just move on. then finally at 15:40 (35 minutes after the techwhoring project) he let me do the quickpoll.

3 minutes later Apoc shows up and supports the quickpoll's decision.

Finally, at 15:48 we started the first turn of the turnchat.

Also note that most turnchats only last an hour or so, so we got 1 turn down and were nearing the end of our turnchat.

Then theres the fact that many people though there was a 4PM turnchat today (myself included).

The above sparked the Skywalker incident. He was in the right in my opinion.

He began to rant about how the turnchat wasnt clearly announced, hwo he just assumed it was at 4 because thats what we do, how Timeline didnt put it in the official "next scheduled turnchat" thread, etc. All valid points. Then Ninot started arguging how it's just a matter of courtesy and they don't have to tell the people anything about the turnchats. Another (sadly) valid point Skywalker rants some more.

that ranting / arguging ended at about 15:58 with this line:

[15:58] (Ninot-) i dunno, im confused

Even our president was confused at this point. Timeline was doing a bang up job.

Then Ninot decides to inform the citizens about whats going on. Finally some sense of the turnchat, only an hour in.

Shortly after that the game began to crawl ahead again, finally.

then came 16:06. We had no city planner. This is the fiasco that other people concentrate on, ignoring the rest. Anyway:

We have no city planner at all, and we have 2 cities that need build orders (Termina and Apolyton). Sir Ralph is busy with his IE duties, and Timeline assumes he's the city planner (He doesn't know many of the governmental offices. He also assumed Ralph was the Science Advisor). He started asking Ralph what his orders were, and Ralph stated his IE orders (for the second time). Timeline then basically shoves the problem at sir ralph, and sir ralph says it's not his job, again. some chatting in all caps ensued.

Then, at 16:12, OPD's plan has been "decided upon" and I'm making points about switching cities (warrior and galley building), and listening to OPD tell me how to change the tiles to max production in Apolyton. Apparently that nugget of information (very valuable) was lost in one of the ranting sessions. He explained it to me and I began promoting it amoungst the ministers.

Some more debating ensued,and at 16:16 me and sir ralph were still discussing the Workable tiles / Production. a Minute laer Ninot and Timeline "resign".

Then they say it was a joke. Fine. I'm very angry but I'm still there.

then three minutes later:

[16:18] (Timeline23) Ninot and Timeline Declare martial law
[16:19] * Gepap sees they didn't, scales back plans for coup... I mean, ice cream party!
[16:19] * Epistax practices his martial arts
[16:19] (Timeline23) lol...

And thats when I left.

[Ninot]

A fair resume

Timeline had some problem, yes.

But of all the problems we came to, how many can we squarely place blame on he and I?

He began to rant about how the turnchat wasnt clearly announced, hwo he just assumed it was at 4 because thats what we do, how Timeline didnt put it in the official "next scheduled turnchat" thread, etc. All valid points. Then Ninot started arguging how it's just a matter of courtesy and they don't have to tell the people anything about the turnchats. Another (sadly) valid point Skywalker rants some more.

As i told Skywalker in the turnchat, and will repeat now.. i CLEARLY stated in the appropriate thread that if anyone wanted to know about turnchat times, to check with Timeline. That post was up for 4 whole days. And it is not Timelines fault if Skywalker and others only read parts of his posts. That isnt incompetence, that is lazyness on behaf of whoever got confused.

then came 16:06. We had no city planner. This is the fiasco that other people concentrate on, ignoring the rest. Anyway:

Well, it is a major issue if a minister is completely ignoring his duties. Timeline got confused perhaps, but in any case, we SHOULD have a propper minister for this position. we decided I would fill that role eventually... which didnt do much cuz you left soon thereafter.

Some more debating ensued,and at 16:16 me and sir ralph were still discussing the Workable tiles / Production. a Minute laer Ninot and Timeline "resign".

Then they say it was a joke. Fine. I'm very angry but I'm still there.

im fine with this, but you follow it with this

[16:18] (Timeline23) Ninot and Timeline Declare martial law
[16:19] * Gepap sees they didn't, scales back plans for coup... I mean, ice cream party!
[16:19] * Epistax practices his martial arts
[16:19] (Timeline23) lol...

And thats when I left.

Now, i dont know how your memory is, but this was all the same incident, just in a different chat room. And, this second part comes from the normal chat, not the ministers only chat (evidenced lies in that Gepap says something). The normal chat is always plagued with non-relevant info and jokes, and spam (and flooding sometimes ).

I dont know why you state you left for the same issue you state you are fine with, that boggles me.

Now, sure, i admitt it, the turnchat wasn't a good one really. 3 turns, and a fiasco., And Timeline had a problem or two to his method, as i point out once in the log if you can find it. But this does not equate to a need for revolution, as you put it in your thread title. Thursdays turnchat will improve. At most, you can equate the need for a few ammendments (as we have done) and perhaps that we should have impeached a minister a couple of weeks ago, instead of ignoring the issue and making on the minute improvisations instead.

But i still see no truly acceptable excuse for a minister to abandon a chat in progress when he could stay( or, i dont see reason from the exuse you give), and i see no reason for a full blown revolution.

[Donal Graeme]

What is the world coming to?

I am gone for less than 12 hours, I come back and find that everything has gone straight to hell! Uber is calling for revolution, Timeline and Ninot are arguing with him, Skywalker is ranting like a madman, Spiffor is trying to explain the situation, Sir Ralph is probably shaking his head right now and tightning the noose, and everyone else is trying to chip in his two cents!

Ok, that calmed me down. Perhaps I should start with some observations:

1. This was a very bad experience for everyone, and must not happen again. Ever, again.

2. Something must be done about Punkbass not being present for so long, that almost certainly made a bad situation worse.

3. This appears to be an isolated event. This has not happened before, and hopefully will not reoccur.

Now with the contentions:

1. Uber, and Ninot + Timeline, you guys are going to have to come to terms with each other. That is something that real leaders have to, and you will to. You were not elected to quarrel.

2. We need to fast track the impeachment process, the better to get someone to fill Punkbass's place.

3. I have suggested before, and will do so again, that we need real, fixed deputy minister positions. The idea is that both the minister and his deputy(ies) will be present at the turnchat. That way, if the minister doesn't show up, the deputy can step in to fill his place. I suggest an amendment like this.

After being sworn into office, a minister will give to the president a list of deputies who will act as his official aides, and act in his stead should the need arise. The number of deputies, as well as which shall be the Deputy Director, shall be determined by law.

[Inverse Icarus]

I had things to do at 4 but thats besides the point.

This was THE worst turnchat ever.

Now, I know thursday's will be better, because you, and everyone else, is on their toes. They're in shock frmo today and they've begun to prepare.

Hell, Spiffor is even taking over city planner (somehow) and making plans. Great.

The game is progressing and there are only going to be MORE orders. Timeline claimed to be "swamped" by orders, and there were only about 12. There are going to be more and more and a major overhall of the entire system is needed RIGHT NOW.

a lot of you are talking about doing it within this system we have now. This system isn't working.

You keep pointing out that we cant use this turnchat as a basis for anything.

We can't use the next one either than.

[Ninot]

Originally posted by Donal Graeme
What is the world coming to?

I am gone for less than 12 hours, I come back and find that everything has gone straight to hell! Uber is calling for revolution, Timeline and Ninot are arguing with him, Skywalker is ranting like a madman, Spiffor is trying to explain the situation, Sir Ralph is probably shaking his head right now and tightning the noose, and everyone else is trying to chip in his two cents!

Ok, that calmed me down. Perhaps I should start with some observations:

1. This was a very bad experience for everyone, and must not happen again. Ever, again.

2. Something must be done about Punkbass not being present for so long, that almost certainly made a bad situation worse.

3. This appears to be an isolated event. This has not happened before, and hopefully will not reoccur.

Now with the contentions:

1. Uber, and Ninot + Timeline, you guys are going to have to come to terms with each other. That is something that real leaders have to, and you will to. You were not elected to quarrel.

2. We need to fast track the impeachment process, the better to get someone to fill Punkbass's place.

3. I have suggested before, and will do so again, that we need real, fixed deputy minister positions. The idea is that both the minister and his deputy(ies) will be present at the turnchat. That way, if the minister doesn't show up, the deputy can step in to fill his place. I suggest an amendment like this.

After being sworn into office, a minister will give to the president a list of deputies who will act as his official aides, and act in his stead should the need arise. The number of deputies, as well as which shall be the Deputy Director, shall be determined by law.

a voice of reason!

i can agree to put the quarelling behind us. after all, its not like i wanted to start any in the first place

And i agree reform is needed, but not threw quarelling as has been evidenced here.

so forward to reform

REMINDER!
elections are not far away at all, starting on the 12th of this month. we need candidates soon, and for many of the positions.

[Donal Graeme]

I forgot to mention one, very, very important thing. You see, I am a student of history. All of my friends make fun of me for it, but I do know my history. And I know that there is usually not just one revolution that solves things. Often, a revolution is followed by another, and another, and so forth. Africa and S. America are full of countries which have experienced such events. What I am saying is this: Uber, if you have your revolution, then what is to prevent someone else from having another a little later when something goes wrong, or somebody does something they don't like? Before too long we will not be sure who is in charge at all, and shadow governments will form all around us. Quickly, the situation will denegrate... and there will be several Apolyton Civ 3 Demo games. Simply put, we can't take the risk. Changes are needed, but they must be within the legal bounds of the game. Otherwise all of our hard work will come to naught.

[Inverse Icarus]

Time is nothing more than a penedulum my friend, swinging back and forth from revolution to revolution, one extreme to the other.

You cant hope to stop it.

[Jonny]

I like Uber's idea for reforming the government.

But the arguing among government ministers must stop!

[Donal Graeme]

A representive, well run Democracy can stave off the need for any revolution. That is what we should seek for, the long term goal, not the immediate gain.