Revolution.

[Togas]

While I'm intregued by the Revolution idea and I am very tempted to vote for it just to see what the hell is going to happen, I feel it's better to abstain and make a couple of short points.

First, we have monthly elections. The next elections are just a few weeks away, there's no need for a revolt right now unless the feeling is that the entire SYSTEM is flawed and we need to redo it. We have the means within the law to fix the problem.

Second, to pull off a revolution you're going to need virtually universal agreement to ignore the rules we've previously agreed to, or you're going to have to try to impeach the "bad" leaders one by one using the laws we currently have ... which requires an unbiased poll and 2/3rds vote.

Third, if there is a serious call for major reform, perhaps it's time to start a Revolutionary Party, undo the current dieing party system and form a group that's dedicated to a defined change in the way things are done. This group can aggressively campaign against current "bad" leaders and work to change our system of laws.

In short, I'd advise trying to deal with this problem within the system of laws we have now, because doing it outside the system is going to be impossible without unanimous support.

--Togas

[Timeline]

Skywalker,

I could say ALOT of things in reply to that...but I'm not gonna....

I am better than that *pats self on head*

There has not been a serious flame war on our forum yet (not a big one) and I refuse to start one today.

[Ninot]

Originally posted by Togas
While I'm intregued by the Revolution idea and I am very tempted to vote for it just to see what the hell is going to happen, I feel it's better to abstain and make a couple of short points.

First, we have monthly elections. The next elections are just a few weeks away, there's no need for a revolt right now unless the feeling is that the entire SYSTEM is flawed and we need to redo it. We have the means within the law to fix the problem.

Second, to pull off a revolution you're going to need virtually universal agreement to ignore the rules we've previously agreed to, or you're going to have to try to impeach the "bad" leaders one by one using the laws we currently have ... which requires an unbiased poll and 2/3rds vote.

Third, if there is a serious call for major reform, perhaps it's time to start a Revolutionary Party, undo the current dieing party system and form a group that's dedicated to a defined change in the way things are done. This group can aggressively campaign against current "bad" leaders and work to change our system of laws.

In short, I'd advise trying to deal with this problem within the system of laws we have now, because doing it outside the system is going to be impossible without unanimous support.

--Togas

I said it once, and Ill say it a second time

Togas is right.

[Timeline]

Yeah, he is.

[Epistax]

Hell even I'd join a party with the sole purpose of revamping the COL. That's not a bad idea.

I'd quit as soon as I thought it went far enough, of course.

[Ninot]

Originally posted by UberKruX
it would help if we had a goddamned city planner now wouldnt it?

Yes, most indeed it would.

I personally dont know how punkbass won a second term. Was it because he had the excuse of following plan pink his first term, so he wasnt needed much, but still made a good candidate? I dont know personally. He shouldnt have his job IMHO.

Now, todays turnchat reduced down to the point where I was doing Punkbasses job( Timeline was doing mine because i was not suppose to show up in truth)

IF we had ministers who always made propper plans, and more often than not showed up to turnchats when they are able to (cuz i know there are those in other timezones....), then all this business of doing each others jobs could be done away with.

But having a Revolution, plain and simple, well, we might as well start another demogame. Elections are a mere 6 days from starting I believe. 12-16, right? Campaigning should be starting soon, within mere days. I suggest instead of blowing the revolution horn, you just decide which ministers are worthy, which are incompetent, and vote! Like I said, Togas is right.

But revolution? to what point? These are just hot words because of the obvious blunder one candidate and all of the people who voted for him made (i hope he didnt run unopposed.....).

[Inverse Icarus]

it was because no one ran against him (IIRC)

[Ninot]

well then, he cant run a third term (even if he DID come out of his eternal coma)

so i suggest someone competent, and who preferably shows great planning and scheduling (so he gets to the chats) runs for the job.

[Inverse Icarus]

basics (not polished)

Uber's Reform Movement

National Level Offices

President and Vice President

• Physically play the game.

Foriegn Minister

• Manages all trades with other nations.
• Trades ivolving technology must be cleared with the Domestic Minister.
• Manages all Peace Treaties / Alliances / Etc.
• May Assign Diplomats to keep tabs on a particular civilization.

Domestic Minister

• Decides which technology path to traverse.
• Oversees all Sector's Govonor's Commands concerning the Military.
• Has the power to override any City Planner's plans.
• Draws up the borders for the Sectors.

Supreme Military Commander

• Plans general Strategy for Wars.
• Oversees all Sector's Govonor's Commands concerning the Military.
• May Assign Generals to monitor certain fronts / certain groups of forces.

Local Level Offices

I have decided that multiple offices for each sector would get very confusing / short of people later in the game, so there will be one Govonor per Sector.

Govonor

• Decides which tiles to work in each city in the sector.
• Decides what to build in each city in the sector.
• Monitors happiness / etc in each city in the sector.
• Decides which tiles to improve in the sector.
• Manages the Garrison for each city in the sector.

Changes to Turnchats

• Plans should be made BEFORE the turnchat starts.
• Each Sector should have at the very least a "5 Turn Plan" that the National Advisor could look up.
• The National Level Minister should have the orders from all of his underlings ready. They should create a thread linking to all their underling's plans (especially for Domestic Advisor).
• The President / Vice President shall ask each office ONE AT A TIME for orders.
• Military Orders from the Supreme Military Commander.
• Domestic Orders from the Domestic Minister.
• Foriegn Orders from the Foriegn Minister.
• After That, the President / VP will ask each minister if anything else has come up.
• After That, the President / VP will open the floor to the general populus (anything they see / think).
• After That, a call will be made to end the turn.
• This will repeat until something major happens / people have to leave.

The Judicial System Shall Remain As Is

[Ninot]

Overall, it looks like a better way to play the game

and, in a simple ammendment, i suppose all of it could become fact and law

but, do we keep it for the next term, so we have plenty of time to work it out, or do we try and do it the 6 days before elections?

i vote for option #1, wait

[Epistax]

w00t go justice.

You left out science completely

Over all I do like it, although it should not perform any better than the current system, if only people were obeying it correctly.

I most approve over all orders being needed before each turnchat, and recommended that to Ninot before reading this.

[Spiffor]

You can find a temporary solution to our city planning problem here : http://apolyton.net/forums/showthrea...threadid=58157

[Ninot]

Originally posted by Epistax
w00t go justice.

You left out science completely

Over all I do like it, although it should not perform any better than the current system, if only people were obeying it correctly.

I most approve over all orders being needed before each turnchat, and recommended that to Ninot before reading this.

Ubers ideas work best in the way that they can eventually lead to eliminating the exessive ammount of posts we have right now. For example, a science minister only has to make up his mind every other turnchat perhaps, while an FAM or SMC might have to make some pretty major decisions on any given turnchat

As to making plans a obligation, i quite agree, it is needed.

When I was FAM, i always made sure I knew what i was doing before and after a turnchat. I always made my plans and ideas clear. Not all of the ministers of this term can say the same of themselves always. This includes shining examples like punkbass.

If we cut down the ammount of jobs, we cut the excess fat, and give the important jobs to people who can do them best.

And if we only had Presdident, VP, three ministers, and then govonors... that might work BEAUTIFULLY!

[Spiffor]

Uber :
Your suggestions sound right on paper, but I fear they'll never survive the harsh test of reality. Indded, you require from people that they remain involved once they've been elected, which isn't sure to happen, far from it
We already have too many examples of people who can't or don't want to continue after being elected, and it could be worse : at CFC, ministers now don't resign and don't keep everyone informed. They simply vanish, as Punkbass did.

Attending the turnchats seems to be too much expectation from our current ministers, do you imagine how high requesting steady, complete plans would be ? You shouldn't measure everyone by your own stick : there are officials who lose their interest in the DemoGame while in charge. There are some involved people who have to leave (see Timeline or Trip).

Also, having less ministers (ie, less people in charge) will make it worse when someone fails. Maybe the solution to this would be : it's mandatory to have one or two deputies before running. People will then elect a team (with a leader) at a ministerial position, not only a potentially absent person.

[Kramerman]

VIVA LA REVOLUCION!!!