Which civ was the most powerful in all history?

[Serb]

. NO other country in the world--I repeat, NO other country--recognized *unalienable* individual rights in 1789. America is the pioneer of democracy. For the cultural impact on the world of that, alone, America should be considered the most powerful nation throughout history.

Unalienable individual rights -Wow how cool
Wasn't it ndividual rights for white guys only? May be it wasn't slavery in 1789 in USA? Or may be the slaves have the same rights that white guys have with only difference what slaves have right to be sold, to be executed or to be killed by they masters?
During next almost 200 years afro-americans fight for their rights and only in 20 century they win. Is it example of democracy which America gave to world? If you call THAT democracy- a democracy for part of population while another part of population don't have the same rights, then I call it fake democracy.

As far as military power is concerned, undoubtedly, America is number one. Relatively speaking, America has more military power than any other country throughout history. Alexander the Great could never destroy the world with a few pushes of a button. America can. Absolutely speaking, I'd pit America's army against any other army throughout history.

Can you remind me which wars they win. They never fight against real, serios enemy. USA is lucky, because they allways was too far away from our Europe's showdowns. They allways seat on their continent and watch how we fight against each other (not bad stategy ). Americans are traders but not warriors. I can asure you that if they iniciated war against USSR then they was deafeted by us. We are the nation of warriors but not traders. BTW may be you forgot that Russia have the same numbers of nukes and can easy destroy the world with a few pushes of a button.
USA do not have the SUPREME power, this nation is not the ruler of the world, becouse it's simple impossible. In all human history never exist such a race and never be. All great empires sooner or later collapse no on can achive a supreme power and become the ruler of the world. So let's live in peace and let's forget about our past hostilitys

[Panzer]

I can asure you that if they iniciated war against USSR then they was deafeted by us.

I think if it would have come down to a full-scale nuclear war we all would have been dead or worse. There wouldn't be any winners, only losers and a nuclear winter.

[IncreduloDriver]

Originally posted by Serb


Unalienable individual rights -Wow how cool
Wasn't it ndividual rights for white guys only? May be it wasn't slavery in 1789 in USA? Or may be the slaves have the same rights that white guys have with only difference what slaves have right to be sold, to be executed or to be killed by they masters?
During next almost 200 years afro-americans fight for their rights and only in 20 century they win. Is it example of democracy which America gave to world? If you call THAT democracy- a democracy for part of population while another part of population don't have the same rights, then I call it fake democracy.

Your knowledge of American history comes from the back of a Siberian cereal box, so allow me to elighten you. It's true that blacks were enslaved in the southern United States in 1789. Indeed, it was European countries who initiated the unjust practice. It's true that blacks were denied their unalienable rights. Nevertheless, NO other country in the world--I repeat, NO other country--recognized *unalienable* individual rights in 1789 for ANYBODY. Not for white people, not for black people, not for gay people, not for Jews, not for old people, not for ANYBODY. The United States paid for slavery from 1860-1865 through the loss of hundreds of thousands of its young men and through the near disintegration of the Union. However, the belief in unalienable individual rights prevailed, and it's THAT belief that spearheaded the democratic movements throughout the rest of the world.

Can you remind me which wars they win. They never fight against real, serios enemy. USA is lucky, because they allways was too far away from our Europe's showdowns. They allways seat on their continent and watch how we fight against each other (not bad stategy ). Americans are traders but not warriors. I can asure you that if they iniciated war against USSR then they was deafeted by us. We are the nation of warriors but not traders.

Ad... what's that Latin word again? Oh yes, hominem.

(Ahem, ten year Soviet invasion of puny, backward Afghanistan)

BTW may be you forgot that Russia have the same numbers of nukes and can easy destroy the world with a few pushes of a button.

Glad to see we agree on the point I made, which is that a modern army beats a senior one.

USA do not have the SUPREME power, this nation is not the ruler of the world, becouse it's simple impossible. In all human history never exist such a race and never be. All great empires sooner or later collapse no on can achive a supreme power and become the ruler of the world. So let's live in peace and let's forget about our past hostilitys

Okay, I'll concede that the United States is not an omnipotent god. As far as cultural power is concerned, however, the US certainly beats the pants off of every other civilization in the history of the world, for reasons I've mentioned in my previous posts.

[Martinus]

Originally posted by IncreduloDriver

Your knowledge of American history comes from the back of a Siberian cereal box, so allow me to elighten you. It's true that blacks were enslaved in the southern United States in 1789. Indeed, it was European countries who initiated the unjust practice. It's true that blacks were denied their unalienable rights. Nevertheless, NO other country in the world--I repeat, NO other country--recognized *unalienable* individual rights in 1789 for ANYBODY. Not for white people, not for black people, not for gay people, not for Jews, not for old people, not for ANYBODY.

[/b]
Your knowledge of European history comes from the back of a Chinese match box, so allow ME to enlighten YOU.
The French Constituante (Parliament) adopted the French constitution and the Declaration of (unalienable) civil rights during the period 1789-1791, so US were hardly the only ones. Also, at the same time the slavery was abolished in French colonies (raising great concern of the US Congress btw, that was afraid of black rebellions in America).

The United States paid for slavery from 1860-1865 through the loss of hundreds of thousands of its young men and through the near disintegration of the Union.

Sacrifices one makes to achieve something are hardly indicative of the cultural dominance. Russians or Chinese, for example, have suffered much greater human losses than, say, Swiss or Belgians during their surge for freedom, but the results are, obviously, hardly proportionate to the sacrifices suffered.

However, the belief in unalienable individual rights prevailed, and it's THAT belief that spearheaded the democratic movements throughout the rest of the world.

You ARE aware of the fact that by 1860 there was no slavery in British or French colonies, aren't you?

Ad... what's that Latin word again? Oh yes, hominem.

Uhm... I advice checking your pocket Latin dictionary again, because the Serb's reply you are quoting, while perhaps a bit fallacious, is hardly an ad hominem attack. Quite contrary to your "cereal" remark, btw.

Okay, I'll concede that the United States is not an omnipotent god. As far as cultural power is concerned, however, the US certainly beats the pants off of every other civilization in the history of the world, for reasons I've mentioned in my previous posts.

Well, it is disputable, to say the least. The fundamental ideas of Greek (philosophy) and Roman (law) civilisations still form basis of the Western society. Yes, US probably made one of the more spectacular uses of these ideals, but these ideas were hardly invented in 1789.

[Zealot]

Since the question is "which civ WAS the most powerful in all history" I had to vote for the Romans.
What they conquered for the time is an absolutely huge amount of territory! And they were able to implant their culture on those conquered territories for centuries!

But speaking of nowadays, the USA (along with their British allies) are the most powerful nation on Earth.

[genghisvick]

Originally posted by IncreduloDriver

True enough. Why is English the de facto world language? Because *America* has the most powerful, dynamic economy in the world. English is a required language in many countries, including the one in which I live, China. I guaratee you that 1.2 billion Chinese people do not learn English because the Chinese government finds the British government enamoring. The internet's de facto language is English. Why? Because *America* invented the internet and because most internet users were American for the longest time. America, and not England, is responsible for the spread of the English language *by consent* rather than *by force.* (When it's forced upon a people, it doesn't stick around for very long, either.)


The lasting effect of British culture in many former colonies is negligible or superficial at best. India is a prime example. Since we're trying to determine the most powerful civilization culturally as well as politically, economically, and in force of arms, the large British population just doesn't hold water against those four factors.


Industrialization may have started in Europe, but America has certainly developed it the most. The world's highest GDP both overall and per capita among only 270 million people is more than proof enough. As for the Middle Ages (i.e., the time before industrialization), there are plenty of examples of civilizations that knocked the pants off of European countries (the Arabs, for instance).


Sure, British music rocks--but I'd hardly call the Beatles, Pink Floyd, and Oasis a standard for determining the most powerful civ EVER.


True--not every corporation is from the USA. But most of the largest ones are. The oldest ones are. Why? Because America has the best economy and standard of living on the planet. From where did the very concept of corporations originate? That's right, America (General Motors, in fact, was the first modern corporation). As for Vodafone, I've never heard of it. Must not be too big. But I'm sure you've heard of Motorola, McDonalds, Microsoft, KFC, Ford, General Motors, Intel... and the list goes on.

Politically, America is unquestionably the most powerful nation in the world. I doubt there is anybody on the planet who would doubt this. When America does something politically, the rest of the (civilized) world follows.

Economically, America is unmatched, both in GDP per capita and in total GDP. I also covered this above.

Culturally, America has contributed more to the world than any other civilization in history, save the Ancient Greeks. John Locke (a Limey) was the first person to recognize that governments exist to serve the people, but America was the first country in the world to enact such a system. When America tried it, Europe though they'd fail. Europe laughed at rule by the people. And now, look! The degree of democracy is now the standard of a righteous government. Nearly every European country is a democracy. Every country in America, save Cuba, is a democracy. Africa is partially democratic. Asia is democratizing. Why? Because America showed the world that a system of indivdual rights can work and works well. NO other country in the world--I repeat, NO other country--recognized *unalienable* individual rights in 1789. America is the pioneer of democracy. For the cultural impact on the world of that, alone, America should be considered the most powerful nation throughout history.
Aside from democracy, America has made huge contributions to the culture of the world, including what foods people eat, what clothes they wear, hairstyles, music, movies, etc., etc. Basically, if there is any concept specific to a modern, capitalist economy (fast food, pop music, labor unions, anti-trust laws), you can bet that it originated in America. Some of those things perhaps aren't the greatest, but they certainly have consumed the globe.

As far as military power is concerned, undoubtedly, America is number one. Relatively speaking, America has more military power than any other country throughout history. Alexander the Great could never destroy the world with a few pushes of a button. America can. Absolutely speaking, I'd pit America's army against any other army throughout history.

America is certainly the most powerful country EVER. It's true that America has taken influences from previous cultures--philosophy from the Greeks, law from the British and the Romans--but America has merged them all into a new culture, a culture which continues to spread throughout the globe to this day.

Great post man! I agree 100% with you

[pithorr]

Originally posted by IncreduloDriver
Sure, British music rocks--but I'd hardly call the Beatles, Pink Floyd, and Oasis a standard for determining the most powerful civ EVER.

OASIS???!!!
Have you ever heard BLACK SABBATH?

[YefeiPi]

And BTW who told you that China was not doing well in the past decades? As for me they doing very well. They have huge economy growth, and they shoot down US spy planes quite well.

Where did you get the idea that China shoots down U.S spy plane quite well. I don't want to bring the issue up again, but why do you think China downed U.S spy plane and not the other way around?

Still, Russia seem to be better at sinking its own submarine.

[YefeiPi]

Everyone here seems to favor Romans simply because it conquered a lot of land. I mean Roman Empire declined very quickly and while it existed, it just conquered lands and little of anything else. I feel the Greece is better than Rome in terms of overall culture, science development and even then, it is still not the best civ ever.

Another note on America, no matter how hard it tries to differentiate, its root is still British and even though it is the most powerful militaristic and economic country in the world at this particular moment of time, I do not believe it is the best civ ever.

I believe it is very hard and near impossible to define the most powerful civ because no one have a thorough knowledge of every civ. For example, a lot of westerners knows next to nothing about oriental civs, and vise versa. Also, everyone have their own bias and generally tend to favor their own civ as being the best. Since this forum is mainly visited by people on the western hemisphere of the world, therefore the poll and post comments tend to lean on the western civs. This thread is highly debatable and I don't think there will be a conclusive result.

[Dinner]

Originally posted by Serb
Can you remind me which wars they win. They never fight against real, serious enemy. USA is lucky, because they always was too far away from our Europe's showdowns.

You asked so I will give you a brief synopsis of Wars the U.S. has fought in; I will leave out the smaller actions such as the American invasion of Libya in 1804, the dozens of U.S. "actions" in Latin America (of which the invasion of Panama in 1989 was only the latest), and the Philippines insurrection.

1776-1781 The American war of Independence which pitted a rage-tag group of colonials against the most powerful military machine on earth. In the end the Americans (and later their French allies) wore the British down until Parliament decided it just wasn't worth the effort to keep fighting.

War of 1812: Another war between the U.S. and Great Britain; this one was largely a draw and is really just a footnote in the Napoleonic wars. Still the over welling American victory in New Orleans (British killed/wounded/captured = 4000, Americans had 32 wounded and none killed) caused many Americans to believe they had actually won the war.

The Mexican-American war (1845): This was an total American Victory. The war started when Mexican soldiers killed several American soldiers in a disputed border region in Texas; it ended after the U.S. invaded and utterly defeated all Mexican military forces. Humiliated, Mexico was forced to seed half of it's territory to the U.S. including most of what is now the American southwest.

The U.S. Civil war (1861-1865): This was the worlds first truly modern war. It had foreshadowed the what would happen in Europe in 1914-1918. The war saw trench warfare, navel battles between Iron clads, the first mass use of armies with repeating rifles, and the idea of defeating your enemy by destroying his industrial base.

The Spanish-American War (1898): One of the shortest wars in history up to that time. In four months the U.S. invaded and subjugated all of Spain's over seas territories (Cuba, the Philippines, Porto Rico, Guam, Midway island, & a few other islands) and sink two Spanish fleets. At the battle of Manila Bay, upon see the on coming American Navy, the Spanish Admiral in charge ordered his ships into shallow water so that the men might have a chance to swim to shore after their ships were sunk.

WWI (1914-1918)- America joined the allies late in the war but without American financing and war material the allies would have lost long before the U.S. declared war in 1918. It was also wave after wave of fresh American soldiers which enabled the allies to stop the Germans from taking Paris in 1918 and defeat Imperial Germany.

WW2 (1939-1945)- America didn't join in until the end of 1941 but never the less America was THE big power which broke the axis. Everyone knows enough about this one so we'll leave it alone.

Korea (1951-53 [I think])- Not officially a war but a "Police Action". It began when the communist north invaded the capitalist south and nearly defeated them. The U.S. then became involved in a big way and promptly chased the communists all the way to the Chinese border. At that point the red Chinese attacked and the war seesawed back and forth. General McAurthor vocally called for a joint American, British, Japanese, & Nationalist Chinese army to invade China and defeat the communists; however, Eisenhower didn't want to spark WW3 so he instead negotiated a decant with the communists.

Vietnam (1945-1975)- Another police action in which there was no formal declaration of war. The war started when the French retook control of Indochina after WW2. At first U.S. involvement consisted of simply bank rolling the French war effort, after independence the U.S. bank rolled the south's war effort and provided military advisors, by 1966 U.S. forces became involved in a big way. Importantly, the politicians wouldn't allow the Army to invade North Vietnam for fear of angering the Chinese so the war just kept dragging on and on. By 1972 the war was so unpopular that direct U.S. military involvement ceased, however, the south continued to receive financial and material assistance. Three years later the south capitulated.

Operation Desert Storm (1992)- Everyone one knows how one sided this fight was so I won't waste time writing about it.

[red_ishmael]

[QUOTE] Originally posted by Oerdin


1776-1781 The American war of Independence which pitted a rage-tag group of colonials against the most powerful military machine on earth.


Sounds very familiar to something happening right now...

[molly bloom]

Re: people are twisting the question to argue their point

Originally posted by Sun Zi 36

This argument is completely missing the point. It is trying to analyse how culture influences nations. But the question is "Which civ is the most powerful". It's CIV, not country. A Civ consists of a group of people sharing common culture. What u should be considering is whether the group of people u are talking about has a distinct culture. To me US doesn't qualify bcos it does not even contain a group of people sharing common culture.

Distinctly American contributions to world culture:

Jazz.
No other country originated this musical form. You can say it was the product of transplanted African cultures, but you'd be missing the point; nowhere in Africa did this musical form exist. It's a product of the American experience, and American history. And it isn't restricted to the African American community....

The Blues/Gospel.
Again, distinctly and uniquely American, a combination of factors such as enforced conversion to Christianity, the use of Christian imagery and metaphors to communicate with each other in code, to give explicit commentary on social affairs that would not be understood by outsiders. You can find the distant ancestors of blues and gospel in Western Europe and North and West Africa, but it's American to its roots.

We could also say the same about country music, how it had its origins in European folk melodies, but it's an American blend of many differing musical influences. Americans can and do celebrate their own communities cultures, but to suggest that America is only a disparate collection of hived off cultures is incorrect, IMHO.

[SofaKing]

The only reasonable answer is Rome. It held the largest empire for the longest period of time. The Mongols came and went with Gengis Khan. China never expanded out of it's corner of the world. The US, while pretty sweet, hasn't been dominant for nearly long enough. It only became dominant in the 1990's after the USSR fell.

[IncreduloDriver]

Originally posted by Martinus
The French Constituante (Parliament) adopted the French constitution and the Declaration of (unalienable) civil rights during the period 1789-1791, so US were hardly the only ones.

Aye, you're right, I should've said 1776 (the signing of the Declaration of Independence, which was indisputably the first legal document in the history of the world to recognize unalienable human rights) instead of 1789--I apologize for my slip. 1789 was the ratification of the Constitution of the United States of America, which transformed the principles of the Declaration of Independence into the political system America still uses today. It is that system to which I refer when I say that America pioneered Democracy and proved to the world that it works. It is the unalienable human rights of Declaration of Independence to which I refer when I speak of cultural domination of the world. Only the combination of the two could've been so successful (a working democracy founded on unalienable human rights beats rights without democracy and democracy without rights), but they both continue to have significant impacts individually as well as jointly.

In case you didn't realize, the French Revolution was a consequence of the American Revolution. The French helped out the US quite a bit, and it emptied France's royal coffers. So, the French are running about helping America fight this war, meanwhile they're going backrupt, so they've got to raise taxes to compensate. This makes the starving French people even less happy. Meanwhile, the French intellectuals are saying, "Okay, we just helped these Americans fight for unalienable rights, but we don't have any ourselves! What's the deal with that?" This makes French people even less happy still. So, when the Revolution is in full swing, these intellectuals, who are enamored with the 1776 Declaration of Independence listing the unalienable rights of man, decide to incorporate those ideas into the First Republic. I realize that this is the "match box" summary of the French revolution (for space's sake), but let me ask you, if you didn't even know that much, what does that say about *your* grasp of European history?

Also, as a brief sidenote: the First Republic failed.

Also, at the same time the slavery was abolished in French colonies (raising great concern of the US Congress btw, that was afraid of black rebellions in America).

Yeah, as I already said, slavery existed in the US. Until 1865, no less. Doesn't change the fact that the US pioneered individual rights (the core of any decent definition of democracy), even if it wasn't fully consistent in its approach. Aside from that, a lack of racial slavery is not indicitive of possession of unalienable rights.

Sacrifices one makes to achieve something are hardly indicative of the cultural dominance. Russians or Chinese, for example, have suffered much greater human losses than, say, Swiss or Belgians during their surge for freedom, but the results are, obviously, hardly proportionate to the sacrifices suffered.

The point I was trying to make was that the US corrected its terrible mistake. You missed it, I explained it. Case closed.

You ARE aware of the fact that by 1860 there was no slavery in British or French colonies, aren't you?

Aye, see above.

Uhm... I advice checking your pocket Latin dictionary again, because the Serb's reply you are quoting, while perhaps a bit fallacious, is hardly an ad hominem attack.

If you really want to get technical here, a pocket Latin dictionary will tell you nothing of the phrase "ad hominem" other than to tell you that homo means man and ad means toward (plus the accusative, of course). I advise checking an English dictionary, and you'll see that a remark designed to rile a person's sense of patriotism instead of making a logical arguement is, in fact, an ad hominem arguement.

Quite contrary to your "cereal" remark, btw.

At best that could be called a snide remark. I certainly wasn't making an arguement with it, though.

Well, it [America's cultural dominance] is disputable, to say the least.

Aye, it is, and that's what we're doing right now, isn't it? We'll see through logic which arguements are better.

The fundamental ideas of Greek (philosophy) and Roman (law) civilisations still form basis of the Western society. Yes, US probably made one of the more spectacular uses of these ideals, but these ideas were hardly invented in 1789.

Yes, I stated before that the Greek philosophy of reason and the Roman system of law form the foundation of American culture. Just as arithmatic and writing form the foundation of calculus. However, I'd hardly call the US a rehash of Greece or Rome anymore than I'd call calculus simply a rehash of arithmatic. The ideas America embodied weren't all invented in 1776 and 1789, but many of them were, and America was certainly the first country to implement them. You could say that America is a logical conclusion of the synthesis of Greek philosophy, Roman law, and John Locke's political philosophy, plus many new American ideas (seperation of powers, for instance), just as Calculus is the logical conclusion of the synthesis of many different fields of mathematics adapted to fit new environments. American culture *is* a new creation because it had never been done before. And that's why America is the dominant cultural influence today--because it was the first to reach that logical conclusion.

[IncreduloDriver]

Originally posted by SofaKing
The only reasonable answer is Rome. It held the largest empire for the longest period of time.

How did you measure this? There have been plenty of other large empires, both modern and ancient. Is this based on some sort of formula? Total land area divided by decades of rule? Anything?

The Mongols came and went with Gengis Khan.

Not true--they did plenty of Post-Genghis humping (the whole of China under Kublai, for instance).

China never expanded out of it's corner of the world.

China is a pretty bloody big "corner" of the world. You might say that Rome never expanded out of its "corner" of the world, either--if you define corner as some immensely vast territory.

The US, while pretty sweet, hasn't been dominant for nearly long enough. It only became dominant in the 1990's after the USSR fell.

The US has been culturally dominant for a long, long time--as evinced by millions of immigrants travelling across an entire ocean without much more than the clothes on their backs in order to secure a life of freedom.

What was the name of that other superpower that had that "cold war" thingey with the Soviet Union? Oh yeah, Peru.