Which civ was the most powerful in all history?

[egovalor]

Originally posted by EEKthedog
The reason so many people voted America is because most ppl posting here are Americans, who simply do not get enough education about the other nations in the world and their history.
Americans are even taught in schools they are the best and biggest etc.
This entire debate is completely drowned in patriotism and chauvinism.
Nowadays the Americans are world power #1, but in respect to other civs in other times the Americans are way down the list.
The claim that America is the only nation in the world ever to be able to destroy the world with 1 click on a button has everything to do with technology, which is linearly alligned to time.
The Chinese couldn't do this, simple because buttons weren't invented yet in the time they were the dominating civ. (in a matter of years/decades they will be the dominant economic force in the world again).

So all you yanks voting for yourself: Have a seat and read some history before voting yourself.

But the Americans invented the button.

[Cruise22]

Originally posted by egovalor
No cohesive civilization blocked the expansion, no one had to be conquered. Seriously- the rockies were tougher to master than the American indians) makes Alexander the Great's aquisitions look like nothing, and the Roman Empire like a retarded snail.
Science? The United States has existed for just over 200 years. Virtually every scientific and technological advance of any import in the last 200 years has originated from the United States.

LOL what a stupid thread this is, and not to mention some people posting here. LOL
By your logic Belgium is a more powerful civilization than the romans, their legions would not stand a chance against the belgian army with their few tanks and machineguns.

Anyway, you just proved yourself to be a complete brainwashed ****** with the perception of the world as large a the bowl of my goldfish.

[Dauphin]

@ egovalor

And I thought the "Arrogant" American stereotype was just a stereotype.

This is my favourite, implying that America invented the English language. It cracks me up:

And what nation did invent the english language? I can't believe I actually saw someone write that in this thread.

[tomcat ha]

Originally posted by egovalor
The United states is obviously the most powerful "civilization" that has ever existed, almost regardless of how choose to qualify "powerful".
Military might? The only nation to have ever existed that could, theoretically, conquer the entire EARTH using only it's military (in a few years). Granted, this senario is fairly new (break up of soviet russia) and is by no means permanent, but there it is. It leads (and has just about always lead) in terms of sheer military manpower as well as military science. Was the deciding factor in in both "world wars", and currently "polices" the globe.
Diplomacy? At present the entire world does what the USA wants it too. Name one nation or people that doesn't and isn't getting obliterated economically or militarily. Given, in terms of historic time this is also a recent development, however even from it's birth the US has been a if not the major player in world affairs.
Land area? While not possesing the largest land area it is certainly one of the largest nations, and without a doubt the land under it's technical boundaries is the most productive agriculturally and otherwise in the world. Also consider: the great mass of land area that the united states possesses was gained in a phenominally short period of time. "Manifest destiny" (note: in terms of land area. No cohesive civilization blocked the expansion, no one had to be conquered. Seriously- the rockies were tougher to master than the American indians) makes Alexander the Great's aquisitions look like nothing, and the Roman Empire like a retarded snail.
Science? The United States has existed for just over 200 years. Virtually every scientific and technological advance of any import in the last 200 years has originated from the United States. If by some odd chance an american didn't discover or invent it, an american found a viable use for it, perfected it, mass produced it, or made it safe for the world. The Car. The TV. Genetic splicing. The Cheese-burger. Also, civilisation with highest literacy rate and life span *to have ever existed*. We're talking major civilisations here- don't say "But the literacy rate in switzerland or Great Britain....", because they don't count as civilizations anymore, and would likely not exist without US aid or protection anyhow.
Culture? A no-brainer. Every nation on Earth attempts to emulate the United States in terms of behavior and cultural activity. If people can't get close enough to the border to crawl into citizenship, they demand that their countries make life as American-like as possible. They want movies and sports cars and McDonalds. Mostly, they want freedom, which is to say, they want personal rights. Definately, an American invention. American owned companies exist in every country 5 times over and American media inudates the world. Why can I go to russia and sell a pair of jeans for 300 dollars (or it's rubble equivilent)? Because they are 100% American. There are a million examples. In "game terms", the US won a cultural victory about 80 years ago. They don't show chinese movies in russia. You can't tune into russian radio in Austrialia. No one in South America knows anything about Austrailian sports. South Americans don't teach their children comprehensive german history, and vice versa. But every major country awaits the next big American movie. I can find American radio on any dial in the (civilized) world. The four corners of the world bet on game 7 of the world series. And if an elementary school in the world doesn't study American history...well then, it's because an oppressive regime is afraid to let it. Nuff said, I believe, and all very true.
Politics? American policy decides the course of the world. Also, consider the values in which you judge a nation's political system or it's political health. How do you guage how "advanced" a nation's politics and/or ruling powers are? By how near it is to being a constitutional democracy...i.e, how closely it resembles America. Check this out. Not ONLY did America begin it's existence by shunning archaic European politics...but a short time later every country in Europe got jealous and tried to copy them. "Hey, we want a constitution and liberties like them!"
Economy? I doubt there is much need for an arguement here. One tidbit however: Americans invented the term "to make money". Before american psuedo-capitalism, wealth was a static quantity to be stolen or siphoned or looted. Having in all senses of the word "invented" productivity, it is no small wonder that america continues to dominate the globe economically. When the dow jones industrial takes a hit, every nation trembles.
In summary...being powerful is in essence holding influence or sway. There is no civilisation to have ever existed that holds more influence over so many people (the whole world) and so much land (well, heh, the whole world except for some afgan caves, but I suspect they will come around). The key words here are *to have ever existed*.

These arguments will be presented, if anyone bothered to read all this:

A. The United States has only been around for 200 years. How can you say it is the greatest EVER, when the (enter random civilization here) was around for THOUSANDS????

The youth of the US as a civilization is only a testiment to it's power. What group of people have accomplished SO MUCH in so little time? Besides, it's irrelvent to the question/poll. An (american, heh) analogy: Micheal Jordan was probably the greatest basketball player to have ever lived. This was just as true in his FIRST season as his 6th.

B. America couldn't conquer the world! That just hows how ARROGANT you are!

Answer: 1. America has already counquered the world. You just don't pay us taxes. In fact, our taxes probably pay you....
and 2. Are you daft? Of course it could. What century are YOU living in?

C. "America" isn't even a civilization. It's just a multicultural conglomeration of people and ideas from throughout the world and history. Everyone speaks ENGLISH, and thats not American.

Well, do you think this conglomeration of peoples from around the globe accidently decided to collect itself on the north american continent, blatently avoiding mexico and suspiciously south of canada? And what nation did invent the english language? I can't believe I actually saw someone write that in this thread.

D. America just bullies people.

Sure does. Bullies everyone. Fortunately this usually involves GIVING STUFF AWAY, like food or money. Here's a project every history or current events professor should give his students: compile a list of every country that would cease to exist, or would suffer grievous economic collapse and/or casualties if the United states withheld all of it's foreign aid (and protection). Or complie a list of the foregn aid recieved by the United States...during it's entire history. Here's the catch: The Confederacy doesn't count.

C. But you can still see and live examples of the roman and egyptian culture even today!

Can you imagine any event within the next 5000 years that could eradicate the massive cultural revolution that has sprung and continues to spring directly from the United States? Short of the DESTRUCTION of the WORLD? And I mean MASSIVE culture. Not pointed mounds of rock or cracked pillars found in an archilogical dig. Roman culture existed IN ROME. Do you think daily life in germania changed a whole bunch during roman "rule"?

D. You are biased by the time frame. If the Egyptians or the Persians existed now, they could influence the whole world like the US. It is an unfair advantage, because of all the new technology. And the world isn't in the same political and social scenario as it was during various hisotorical eras.

True, but consider this: All this new technology is the product of the industrial revolution combined with years of free trade and free thought. These things are American. That is, the US poineered these things and made them possible. If you don't think so, you don't undertstand that social and scientific progress is directly dependent on proper government. And the Americans invented that, and made it work. The English may have held sway over a (proportional for the time, if you insist) small amount of the world...but they didn't invent the boat. Or the concept of military might, which are precisely the tools they used. Americans DID "invent" the constitutional republic (modern democracy), and the concept of individual rights. Which is what makes their current dominance possible.
A side note. For all purposes, the persians and the egyptians and chinese all DO exist today, as a people. However, consider how they make use of today's "time frame". People in the middle east still use women as currency. They still skin people and have regional religious wars. Only they use imported American m-16 rifles instead of flint spears or iron scimitars, and they use radio to propogandize instead of orators. The only thing "modern" about China is and most of the far east is the technology that has seeped in from outside it's borders.
And no, the world isn't in the same political or social situation now as at has been at various points. It is in whatever political or social situation that the United States feels most appropriate.

America can`t conquer the entire world.
no country can do that.
cause if you want to do that the enemies must be at least be 2 generation back in military power.
and that is still difficult.
and the US wasen`t the diciding factor in WW2
without Russia they woud have lost the war.
but Russia woudn`t also make it if the US didn`t fight against Germany.

[Foxglove]

Should have guessed that this poll would have turned into a US vs everyone else thread

I think the problem is people`s interpretation of the word "Most Powerful" in this poll.
IMHO it doesn`t just mean military might but also cultural influence left by a civ, its impact on future generations, expansion of both peoples and ideas/philosophies, colonisation and integration of land/peoples, be it by gradual absorption into a culture or by military conquest and invasion.
If you apply all of these to the original poll then, again IMHO, its the Roman empire who would win, followed closely by the Greeks and perhaps the Chinese and later on by my own country, The Brits.
Unfortunately the USA, as a civ, just doesn`t come into the equation, unless you were to base it purely on military might, but even then its not so clear cut because one could say that the Romans at the height of their power had no match militarily from any other civ or race.
/shrug

So, my top 3 "Most powerful" Civs are:

1) Roman
2) Greek
3) Chinese/British (Tied)

Regards

[alskdj80]

LOL what a stupid thread this is, and not to mention some people posting here. LOL

No doubt... and I hope you're not including me, hehehe... hehe... oh...

United States: very important.

Your country: How do you pronounce that? Why should we care again?

Despite the arrogance... I've gotta laugh. Most Americans don't even know where Canada, one of their major allies (or should I say, only ally?), is. Near Russia they say... "it's cold there... so it must be near Russia", I've heard many people say... I don't think I've laughed more than I did when I heard that.

Sure does. Bullies everyone. Fortunately this usually involves GIVING STUFF AWAY

I agree. Alot of people don't appreciate what the US has done. But then again, that's the burden of being the top nation in the world today, isn't it? Notice that I didn't say 'in the history of humans'...

Can you imagine any event within the next 5000 years that could eradicate the massive cultural revolution that has sprung and continues to spring directly from the United States?...

Yes.

...Short of the DESTRUCTION of the WORLD?

Oh!... hmm... er... yes. It's not that hard. All those races in America are not completely equal despite what we would hope for. There are crack lines, and given enough stress, say economic collapse, most will disappear.
Now, I know many people will argue that it doesn't matter, that those other cultures are not needed, that America will be fine just the way it is. I'm not going to pretend that I know what will happen, but I think that the strength and weakness of the US lies in the fact that Americans are diverse.

And, no, the US can't conquer the world. Even if every last person were send down to fight. Pushing a button to destroy the world isn't conquering the world. Besides, many countries these days have that capability. I mean, they had a hell of a time just trying to defeat Northern Vietnam. Even partial world domination (and I don't mean through commerce) would not be possible. I mean, try conquering Europe. Or Asia. Or any other continent. Sure, they may not have as much technology as the US, but the difference isn't as significant as a battleship attacking a spearman.

Culture? American culture is TV and VCR... mmm... TV and VCR.... lol. But wait! the VCR is Japanese... and most of the 'drivable' cars are european or japanese too... I won't deny the programs are mostly American, though. But the computers, surely they're American? What the ****? What's this 'Made in Taiwan' label doing here? Well, at least we can scratch it out.... Americans has a lot of culture though, I won't deny, but please... at least give due credit to the other countries.

People in the middle east still use women as currency. They still skin people and have regional religious wars. Only they use imported American m-16 rifles instead of flint spears or iron scimitars, and they use radio to propogandize instead of orators. The only thing "modern" about China is and most of the far east is the technology that has seeped in from outside it's borders.

First of all... we're not comparing 'most powerful civ of today'... so you're comparison is not really proving anything, is it? Unless your point is the influence of the US on the world. Who didn't have influence on the world during the time they were in the most power?
And how naive!! Spears and scimitars??
LOL, well, that technology belongs to China anyways, considering that some of the research are done by Chinese (as well as other groups, yes! not just Americans, ) anyways. And stop complaining, if you were scared about that, you'd do some research yourself... Chinese can do research??? Russians can do research??? Middle Eastern people can do research??? After all, if those groups can do it, how hard can it be??? (sarcasm)...

[Ribannah]

Originally posted by egovalor
Are you from the netherlands? Contact your local government official (heck I dunno...do you still have kings or princes over yonder?) and ask him how much foreign aid your country has recieved this year from Mr and Mrs. Arrogant. In fact, find out yourself...didn't we send you guys the internet? I know you were on our list SOMEWHERE.

Where is it??? Must of been piling up for decades as noone has claimed any of it ...... ........ yet!!

FYI, the Netherlands give by far the highest percentage of their annual income to foreign aid, and receive none, while the USA is so poor that it has trouble paying its fee as a member of the United Nations.
The Netherlands are also one of the largest - if not the largest - foreign investor in the USA. Didn't they give you guys social insurance? You must of been on the list SOMEWHERE.

And when you need the Dutch, you know where to find them alright. In the war with Iraq the Dutch had to protect your fleet from incoming missiles, because they had the superior technology. At Ground Zero, you called in Dutch rescue teams for the same reason.

[egovalor]

Originally posted by tomcat ha


America can`t conquer the entire world.
no country can do that.
cause if you want to do that the enemies must be at least be 2 generation back in military power.

...um...what on EARTH are you talking about? We were talking about reality. Did you glean that "rule" from the age of empires manual or something? jeeesus....

[egovalor]

Originally posted by Ribannah


Where is it??? Must of been piling up for decades as noone has claimed any of it ...... ........ yet!!

FYI, the Netherlands give by far the highest percentage of their annual income to foreign aid, and receive none, while the USA is so poor that it has trouble paying its fee as a member of the United Nations.
The Netherlands are also one of the largest - if not the largest - foreign investor in the USA. Didn't they give you guys social insurance? You must of been on the list SOMEWHERE.

And when you need the Dutch, you know where to find them alright. In the war with Iraq the Dutch had to protect your fleet from incoming missiles, because they had the superior technology. At Ground Zero, you called in Dutch rescue teams for the same reason.

I happen to know a little about US foreign policy. If you can cite a source that maintains that the Netherlands recieve no foreign aid from the United States, *OR* that the Netherlands has sent any (we are talking government money...not foreign investment) to the United States, I will mail you 1000 American dollars.

By the way....what is "social insurance"? Is that some socialist program? We don't like those here, as a rule. You can keep it.

And here's a question. If the USA is so "poor"....why is your country supposedly one of the largest investors in it? Anyone with half a brain would realize that that would be a poor investment.

Of course you established the fact that you have half a brain by implyig that the wealthiest nation on Earth is, in fact, not. Of course, it is, and you are just making things up.

Come on...the dutch at ground zero...you must be kidding me.

"OH ****....New York is under attack!!!! Oh my god Mr. President...what do we do???"

"Simple. Call the Dutch!"

heh. If there was anyone from the Netherlands putting forth an effort at Ground Zero, I PROMISE you it was a PR stunt, and the dutch thanked Mayor Guliani for allowing them to take up space. I mean, get real. think about it. You are the DUTCH. You are more useless than the French. I mean no disrespect, none at all, heck, I'd probably rather live in the Netherlands. I'm sure you are a wonderful people. But you aren't important in international affairs.

[red_ishmael]

[QUOTE] Originally posted by egovalor




By the way....what is "social insurance"? Is that some socialist program? We don't like those here, as a rule. You can keep it.

[QUOTE]

You dont like socialism? So those wonderfully free people you have can go and die of starvation and poverty for all you care, pretty humanitarian (excuse my spelling), sure glad you lot are the "policemen" of the world. Taking over the world is a little tougher than you might think, what with Chinese/Indian nukes, Guerrilla warfare, and a rapidly unified world system, hell your taking forever to beat the afghans, and you werent too successfull against the vietnamese. Who by the way survived a hell of a long time without any american aid (unless you call a **** load of land mines aid).
I think to be "civilised" it would probably require you to care just a little for humanity, rather than simply having the power to destroy the world a few hundred times over.
To tell the truth i dont think one can really say what the most powerfull civ ever is, sadly there is no point system like in the game, and everything is magnified over time.

[Rosacrux]

Re: Romans win by a toga length...

Originally posted by Bubba_B
I've walked the streets of Pompeii....
I've gazed at the ruins of the coliseum.........
I've climbed to the castle fortress of Masada.......
I've toured the Roman markets of Jerusalem........

Rome stands above any Civilization for its age. England, Egypt, American and Greece all have many good arguments for best ever, but Rome without question was the most powerful ever in its time.

Yes Roman culture was for the most part borrowed from the Greeks, the Romans however spread it all the known world.

No standing Army stood a chance against a well lead Roman Legion, and if by chance they were defeated (Hannibal comes to mind), Roman culture and economic power prevented the destruction of the empire.

Even today the Roman influence is felt in the Roman Catholic Church (an extension of Emp. Constantine’s conversion).

By the way I'm American of Scott/German decent, no bias here.

Now, there is a guy speaking the language of wisdom. Cheers to you lad, but remember sic transit gloria mundi

[S. Kroeze]

Originally posted by EEKthedog
The reason so many people voted America is because most ppl posting here are Americans, who simply do not get enough education about the other nations in the world and their history.
Americans are even taught in schools they are the best and biggest etc.
This entire debate is completely drowned in patriotism and chauvinism.
Nowadays the Americans are world power #1, but in respect to other civs in other times the Americans are way down the list.
The claim that America is the only nation in the world ever to be able to destroy the world with 1 click on a button has everything to do with technology, which is linearly alligned to time.
The Chinese couldn't do this, simple because buttons weren't invented yet in the time they were the dominating civ. (in a matter of years/decades they will be the dominant economic force in the world again).

So all you yanks voting for yourself: Have a seat and read some history before voting yourself.

Good post! Concise and penetrating! I completely agree!

The least these nit-wits could do is to explain how they define the concept 'Civilisation'! My guess is this would go beyond their intellectual ability.

I also completely agree that China will be the dominant economic power in the world again in the near future as it was during the T'ang and Sung! I guess the very idea is too threatening even to consider it....

[Dauphin]

I happen to know a little about US foreign policy

Its a start. I suggest you learn a little about the rest of the world as well.

[Ribannah]

Originally posted by egovalor
I happen to know a little about US foreign policy. If you can cite a source that maintains that the Netherlands recieve no foreign aid from the United States, *OR* that the Netherlands has sent any (we are talking government money...not foreign investment) to the United States, I will mail you 1000 American dollars.

I'll decline. You need it more than I do
A little knowledge just doesn't cut it. Why would you send the Netherlands foreign aid? They have no deficit problems, and a comfy balance surplus. Worse, making such weird statements leads people to believe the stereotype of American ignorance.
Of course there are no records of things that DON'T take place!
It's up to you to prove they DO (and where this aid has disappeared to - when you find it, we'll donate the stash to Apolyton ).

By the way....what is "social insurance"? Is that some socialist program? We don't like those here, as a rule. You can keep it.

As it turns out, your fellow citizens like it very much. Maybe you want to read up.

And here's a question. If the USA is so "poor"....why is your country supposedly one of the largest investors in it? Anyone with half a brain would realize that that would be a poor investment.

Lucky for you, the investors have a full brain.
Let me spell it out: while it is true that - in contrast to the Dutch - many USA citizens live below the poverty line, many other USA citizens are wealthy enough. But the USA government is in a poor financial state.
That said, investing in a poor country is often very profitable, because the costs are low and the potential is huge. If your ancestors had not taken this view, you would still be living in wooden cabins, receiving foreign aid from the Amerind tribes like the first English settlements.

Come on...the dutch at ground zero...you must be kidding me.
"OH ****....New York is under attack!!!! Oh my god Mr. President...what do we do???" "Simple. Call the Dutch!"

Actually, the Dutch were the first to volunteer (together with the Greeks) and arrived at the scene through Canada way before your airports were re-opened. When the people of New York saw the Dutch equipment that worked x times faster than their own, they asked for more of this foreign aid (hey! Wait a minute ... $$ ) and it was given to them.

heh. If there was anyone from the Netherlands putting forth an effort at Ground Zero, I PROMISE you it was a PR stunt, and the dutch thanked Mayor Guliani for allowing them to take up space. I mean, get real. think about it. You are the DUTCH. You are more useless than the French. I mean no disrespect, none at all, heck, I'd probably rather live in the Netherlands. I'm sure you are a wonderful people. But you aren't important in international affairs.

Well, you are certainly SHOWING much disrespect. Try to discover some of the facts of life and clean up your act, or one day you will find that you ARE alone in the world.

[jasev]

My god! I can't believe it, it's impossible, I just... I just...

agree with ribannah!!