America isn't old enough to be in Civ3

[Ironwood]

Were it not for the United States, you would all be speaking German, or Russian. Were it not for the United States, you'd all be buying your oil at inflated prices, with Kuwait out of the OPEC equation.

I would like a Eurpoean to name *one* thing a country of Europe has contributed to the United States since the our Revolutionary War. I aknowledge the role of the British Navy in keeping other European powers out of the colonization business in the Western Hemisphere, but aside from that, what?

And no, the immigrants who came here to *flee* the backward and primative social systems you had in the past don't count.

Whiny pissant America bashing pisses me off.

[gopher]

must not post here, must not post, must not post.....
DAMMIT!

Anyways, I can't believe all these arguments about America not being in the game. Hmmmmm...... Name one country that had the geo-political impact that America has now, or since 1940 (well, perhaps USSR). Even at the height of the Roman Empire, it controlled only Britan, Gaul, Iberia, Italy, the Balkans, Turkey, the Levant, and N. Africa. Sound big....perhaps. But the impact of Rome did not streach beyond its borders. What does that mean? The Han dynasty (china), the Guptas (India) and the Sassanids (Persia) existed, and were actually more culturally distinct than Rome. In each case, the culture of the other nation-states did not influence the others. Rome barely knew China existed, much less knew the famous 2nd century Chinese rapper Long Wong, and his hit "Smoke Some Mulberry".
And the Iriquos?! They were barely a nation, with the creation of their confederecy in the 1600 and its disentegration in the early 1800's. How's that for impact? And yes, I know, their confederation was a basis of the U.S, but still, there is really no impact of the Iriquos Confederecy on the (Modern) world.
Actually, if you think about it, if you look worldwide, Europe really didnt matter world-wise until about 1700's. Before that, all Europe happened to be was a medium population trading base for China and the ME, plus the Malians and Ethiopians.

[Rosacrux]

Originally posted by Ironwood
Were it not for the United States, you would all be speaking German, or Russian.

...who knows, we might have been better saying nazdrovnje, tavarich and spasiba than the americanized english we are speaking now. And we wouldn't have McDonalds here too! For that gain I would give away my freedom to be exploited by others

Were it not for the United States, you'd all be buying your oil at inflated prices, with Kuwait out of the OPEC equation.

Were if not for the US the middle east might not whitness everyday slaughter, justice would be served and the whole place would be free to do what the local populations want, not what Exxon and their likes wish... And also, we wouldn't have experienced the Frankestein creations of USA - Saddamn Hussein etc.

I would like a Eurpoean to name *one* thing a country of Europe has contributed to the United States since the our Revolutionary War.
And no, the immigrants who came here to *flee* the backward and primative social systems you had in the past don't count.

Yeah, right, if not for Europe there would be no USA - we have created you and feeded you with immigrants - and no, they were not running away from anything like what you say, they were just the ones in the bottom of the social/economical/mental barel here and we had to get rid of them

So, USA is literaly built out of European crap. You got to love it.

Besides that, what we give to you today is:

- Money. We buy your crappy no-good products and fill your pockets with money. Take away from USA the international commerce and you end up with a nation bankrupt.

- Brains. We give you our best brains and you use them to make more crappy products, sell them to us and thous make more money.

- Air space, harbours, airports, bases etc. for your mighty US Armed Forces... without us, your force can't even supply toilet paper to whipe your sailors butts

- Culture, free and inspiring for the colonial savages... too bad you still can't understand a bit of culture... well, maybe eventually you will (in another 1.000 years probably)

- Tradition and heritage. Most americans are proud to call themselves "afro-american" "Italian" (plain) "Greek-American" "I-don't-know-what-American" etc. You try to get some roots, because you don't have any in your own country.

Whiny pissant America bashing pisses me off.

Whiny pissant Europe bashing pisses me off

[gopher]

Originally posted by Rosacrux



Were if not for the US the middle east might not whitness everyday slaughter, justice would be served and the whole place would be free to do what the local populations want, not what Exxon and their likes wish... And also, we wouldn't have experienced the Frankestein creations of USA - Saddamn Hussein etc.

Lets not forget who STILL supports Saddam in the UN, and still sells arms to them....FRANCE! Yes, the USA did do a bad job on him, but at least we learned our mistakes. It would seem that most of Europe would rather keep the profits of the arms deals and piss on the US than actually help out now. Europe, I mean, excluding Britan (And lets face it....Britian aint exactly Euro just yet)
Oh yeah, who were the countries that made a sneak attack with Israel against Egypt? And then sells BOTH sides of the ME conflict arms?

Yeah, right, if not for Europe there would be no USA - we have created you and feeded you with immigrants - and no, they were not running away from anything like what you say, they were just the ones in the bottom of the social/economical/mental barel here and we had to get rid of them

Gotta love those Euro Spams. Yes, if Europe didnt exist there would be no USA. Great, you win. What am I supposed to say, thanks for having a system of government of persecution as well as syphillitic maniacal hardasses? Waging war for honor or to gain 3 square miles of Belgium?

Besides that, what we give to you today is:

- Money. We buy your crappy no-good products and fill your pockets with money. Take away from USA the international commerce and you end up with a nation bankrupt.

Uh......Lets see who is the U.S.'s biggest trading partner....CANADA! (thanks Canucks). Its larger than the EU.
THen China and then Japan. (Or mabey the other way). Anyways....whats your point? If anything, Europe needs the international market. So your welcome for buying YOUR crappy products.

- Brains. We give you our best brains and you use them to make more crappy products, sell them to us and thous make more money.

Right. Europes best brains are stolen. Man, I am so glad I had that Sweedish foreign exchange student here, to help me respond to this argument. After all, I can only make crappy products to sell to Europe, who I admire, then come back home in my beat up Ford with a cowboy hat on, drink a couple beers, watch TV, then go to bed and have wet dreams of Euros and how awesome they are. I wish I was European, I could buy so many crappy products with the money I save from not bathing.

- Tradition and heritage. Most americans are proud to call themselves "afro-american" "Italian" (plain) "Greek-American" "I-don't-know-what-American" etc. You try to get some roots, because you don't have any in your own country.

I love it. It reminds us of our history and culture. Your going to do that soon when the EU solidifies and you are ruled from Berlin.
And the infusion of so many diffrences makes us unique and proud. We actually talk of our diffrences, for we have unity in diversity. Get used to it, especially since more and more immigrants are going into Europe from the ME and Africa. Its no longer a white world. BTW, funny that some Euro countries (Denmark, Austria, Germany) are starting to pass laws that draw distinctions between immigrants and "old school" residents. Methinks you guys are going to look at us and canada as a way to live with others.

[gopher]

Oh yeah, and as for the statement that England was a republic/democracy during Cromwell....
LOL

When Cromwell was in power, he ruled via Puritanism, and actually hated Parliment (and suspended it once). Sounds more like the Papal States than Democracy. Dont forget too that he crushed protests with the New Model Army, and in the latter years ruled through the Army than the government, and then passed on control to his son, and tried to start a hereditary line.
He was just as monarchial as the Henreys.
(This argument is a little less strong after GWB and Florida, I
know, but still...)

Worlds First Democracy/Republic since the fall of the Roman Republic still is America.

[August Borms]

Originally posted by gopher

Waging war for honor or to gain 3 square miles of Belgium?

Belgium is the best country in the world: everybody wants a piece of it

[Rosacrux]

Oh... blast, one has to deal with biggoted uneducated USOs one time or another... I would rather have to reply to a more coherent, sane, intelligent, witty and not-too-stupid post, but ...hell, what we've got, that we use. First, the individual replying to my posting lacks any sense of humour - I certainly would not post a serious reply in a thread that is wondering wether it is right or not to include USA in the game. Of course it is - Firaxis wouldn't make enough money to pay the rent if they didn't

But there are also a couple of points I just have to reply.
And first of all...


USA as a democracy

The first democracy after the ancient world (not the Roman Republic, dear, the last standing democracy was that in the Greek city states that got overrun during the 2nd century BC by the Roman oligarchy - that is the meaning of a "Republic" in the Roman way, at least after the 4th century BC - oligarchy) was the United Kingdom. Period. I may not be a fan of their democratic system, and it was as oligarchic as can be. They got a constitution though, and that's the major factor. It was a major step beyond monarchy - still though lacking most democratic virtues.

USA took the tried and tested British invention, added a generous dose of French enlinghtment (very generous, indeed) - oh, the French are Europeeeans aren't they? - and a shot of Iroqui confederation and... voila, the constitution is done!

What democracy are you talking about? USA is still an oligarchy - definitely not a democracy. In democracy at least most people go to vote (if not participating actively in the public affairs). In USA the voting percentage of the adult population is about 20% - and don't give me the crap "they have the right but they don't. We all know why so many people don't give a rat's arse for politics over there. And "active participation" applies only to congresman-senators (those not occupied by their sexy interns ) and lobbists. The people... know only what media tells them.

And the real power is not in the hands of the government - your president is merely a puppet, a front man to play a role on a large scale. An actor, so to say. Real power resides in the hands of the industrial/military complex, in the big corporations and in the secret services officials.


Now I read it again, your other post - the one directly replying to me - is so full of biggot, bias, stupidity, rants and rabbish, I wouldn't even dream to reply to it.

Stick to your ideas boy, you are quite ok with them I guess

[KrazyHorse]

Originally posted by Rosacrux
was the United Kingdom. Period. I may not be a fan of their democratic system, and it was as oligarchic as can be. They got a constitution though, and that's the major factor

Did they? Last I heard they still didn't have a constitution. Magna Carta doesn't count, BTW. Actually read it and discover how petty it is.

[Rosacrux]

Originally posted by KrazyHorse
Magna Carta doesn't count, BTW

Oh? And why not? I allways was under the impression - silly me... - that the M.C. was the first paper any monarch has signed shifting a large amount of his powers to the people... it wasn't? Oh, quite surprising... and USA was the first "democracy"? But USA is not a democracy, not even now... it's an oligarchic republic.
So that leaves us with... what? France in the revolution era?

[Dauphin]

Originally posted by KrazyHorse


Did they? Last I heard they still didn't have a constitution. Magna Carta doesn't count, BTW. Actually read it and discover how petty it is.

We have an "unwritten constitution". What that means I'm not sure, ask a lawyer, judge, barrister or solicitor.

I think it means that we have "accepted" rights by law, but not "declared" rights by law.

[Fresno]

Originally posted by Steve Clark
You were one of the posters I thought of when I wrote this.

Was I? This thread must be really annoying you then Maybe you'd better stop posting here.

In the thread you asked me to read I also found this:

Originally posted by Grim Legacy
While I can appreciate the humor in this post, I do think that it isn't very helpful to ridiculize the 'realist's stance' like this. It's easy to use the same method to discredit the other faction

And I 100% agree with it.

[Your.Master]

Krazyhorse was dead on in the first page...

...Saying that America was part of a larger Anglo-Saxon-Norman civilization.

Civilization is, contrary to popular opinion, NOT equal to what country you live in. It IS linked to your nation, but too many equate nation and country.

The war of independence did not change the fact that Americans are essentially English-speaking people with English ideals. Sure, there are subtle differences, but not civ-breaking.

(To get right down to it, more traits of this "civ" are generally Christian-Protestant generally white people who have developed countries and tend to share a casual, joking, mutual hatred).

Oh, and all the British commonwealth nations have a constitution. That's why their government is called a "CONSTITUTIONAL monarchy" (which basically means representative democracy with a neato tourist attraction that other democracies don't have)

[Draco aka Se7eN]

Its threads like these that agravate me very much.

Maybe if people wouldnt let Ignorance and Racism blind them then i wouldnt have to read stupid threads like this (well i could ignore them but that agitates me more).

Ok look ill make this short and simple.

When they made the game they picked the civs that have had great impacts on the world today, sure there are plenty of civs that were left out that also had great impacts but they also went with popularity. Since the game will be primarily sold in North America it would be insane not to include America. (derr yeah lets alienate our primary audiance, we are sure to make our millions then derrr) When will people learn that the age of a civilization doesnt matter at all. IF you cant understand that then why post? You have already made up your mind. We told you the reason why the Americans are in the game, ! ! ! ! BECAUSE THE FOLKS AT FIRAXUS BELIEVE AMERICA IS A CIVILIZATION ! ! ! ! derr its that simple. Everyone has their own opinion which is why they included the editor so all those wonderfull people who dont think america is a civ can edit them out.

By the way, america building catapults in anchent times is just as weird as Babylon building nukes in the 21st century. So get over all that crap.

Its repulsive that threads like this make it past the first page.

I would like to see threads like this be deleted. It is highly offensive. Especially after the cowardly acts on September 11th.

[Dauphin]

I would like to see threads like this be deleted. It is highly offensive. Especially after the cowardly acts on September 11th.

I fail to see how the vies on this thread and the events of 11/9/01 are related. How does a persons views on whether the US is a civ in a GAME become offensive, based on a terrorist attack?

Were it not for the United States, you'd all be buying your oil at inflated prices, with Kuwait out of the OPEC equation

Actually the extra oil that the US wasn't wasting would lower prices - due to extra supply and lower demand.

[Akaoz]

Originally posted by Draco aka Se7eN
Its threads like these that agravate me very much.

Its repulsive that threads like this make it past the first page.

I would like to see threads like this be deleted. It is highly offensive. Especially after the cowardly acts on September 11th.

Oh get over yourself. I remember debates like this one way back on the old BBS's on the early '90s when Civ1 was the hottest game ever. It is an _old_ debate.

What is it you want? To stop _all_ criticism of the US to stop overnight because of 9/11?

-Alech