AU 206: Gallic Glory - Stories and Strategy Tips

[nbarclay]

A couple closing thoughts

It's amazing the difference the lack of killer AIs made in this game. Rome had the most land, but it stayed in Monarchy for too long to threaten to pull away with a tech lead. And by the time Rome became a military threat, I'd already gobbled up China, Persia, and India, so I was a much more effective killer than any of the AIs were. As a result, I was able to achieve domination (and could have achieved conquest if I'd desired to) with cavalry before any of my rivals had a chance to get riflemen. (And yes, I'm playing on Emperor level as usual.)

The Gallic Swordsman is a very nice UU in spite of its high cost, at least on a map with iron available and plenty of land to conquer (and preferably no Greeks, Carthaginians, or Zulus next door). It's especially effective if you can build or steal the Great Library, relieving you of the obligation to spend gold on research so you can spend more on warrior upgrades. (And being able to defer building libraries makes it practical to keep building additional Gallic Swordsmen for a while longer.) Played right, I think the Celts can rank up at least near Japan and China as a warmongering civ.

All in all, this was a fun game - at least until it dragged out waiting for my borders to expand enough to give me domination. Thanks, Alex, for setting it up.

Edit: By the way, if anyone's interested, my score was 6996.

[Arrian]

I like the AAR format (shots from the replay). Good idea. And good game, too.

-Arrian

[badams52]

Originally posted by BigDork
The war with Rome was a long one. Longest I've had yet. I misjudged just how many knights it would take to conquer the Romans. I ended up taking a few cities and holding while I produced and sent lots and lots of knights to the front. By the time my offensive was back on all my knights had become cavalry and it was all over for Rome.

I'm really surprised your war with Rome took so long considering your force of 38 knights/gs I saw in your previous shot going against spearmen.

My fight with Rome took some time, but my smaller force of GS/knights were attacking longbowmen, legionary (in defense after I cut off their iron). Most attacks against his offensive forces were on the desert as my Rome expanded father than yours during their war with India.

When I got the area you started attacking, the attack on Antium (in the same place) took a while with getting enough forces in the area (not 38 mind you more like 9 knights, 9 GS). But once Antium fell it was rest all units in the newly taken city (leave a pikeman/musketmen or 2), use a couple of elites to defeat single longbowmen heading for Antium, move entire force to next city, take it, rest all units in recently taken city...

If a city flips, taking it again will be easy.

[badams52]

Nathan,

Your AAR format is nice as it shows the whole continent and your battles. Might make it harder for those who haven't finished (or found the other continents) to avoid seeing the entire map before they finish. But I do like the ability to see the other continent building out and see the difference between your game and my game. Although, sometimes when I get the replay, some white dots (cities) stay around when they were actually destroyed...

[Dominae]

Originally posted by badams52
Although, sometimes when I get the replay, some white dots (cities) stay around when they were actually destroyed...

This effect is especially apparent when making extensive use of temporary camps, as in the case of ralphing. Not a big deal, really, but an eyesore when looking at the replay.

Nice game, Nathan.


Dominae

[badams52]

Originally posted by BigDork
So I finally went to war. I had gotten an RoP with Rome and decided to let it expire instead of abusing it first.

By the way, you can still abuse it even with letting it expire as I did with the Indians (more when I post my final AAR). You just move your troops next to whichever cities you want to capture, let the ROP expire, declare war. You don't get the ROP rape rep hit this way and still ge the benefits of ROP rape.

[badams52]

Originally posted by BigDork
It's time to move my palace but I don't know where. I'm thinking of Delhi or the surrounding area. Unfortuatly my FP was built 1 city north of my capitol. When Persia got the GL it was either switch to my FP or lose a whole lot of shields. Not the ideal place but oh well. If I abandoned that city would I get to build the FP again?

You've already passed this stage, but I don't think an FP next to your capitol isn't all that bad, if you plan to palace jump later when you have more cities. A real good city for the palace jump would be Antium (as I did). I found that all of the main continent and surrounding islands could be productive...with the island cities needing some help. You can talk to Catt about the advantages of an early FP build.

[Arrian]

I captured Antium, rushed a settler, abandoned Antium, and rebuilt a city 1 tile to the NW (plains tile on river) and rushed my FP there. That worked out well.

Delhi is too close, IMO.

-Arrian

[badams52]

The end was near

Okay, as I left off, I had my continent secured all except 7 Indian cities and the last Persian city. I planted a couple of cavalry near the Indian cities during the ROP deal and waited. Once the 20 turns of ROP ended, I dialed up India and said, "I don't want to continue having ROP with you. In fact, you have good cities right in between my palace and FP so give them to me or I'll take them by force." They said they'd rather fight till the bitter end. I said okay and quickly (5 turns or so) took 8 of their last 9 cities and called up for peace, netting 2 GLs which were used for newton's and the MA (I didn't have anything else for them to build at the time) giving me a total of 9 GLs for the game.

With peace in hand with everyone, and armies deployed to the islands to keep them from being attacked, I switched to research and quickly outdistanced America, France and Russia. Every 20 turns I would sell the 3 a tech or 2 for furs, gems and silks. Maybe it would have been better to pare down the American cities and take the luxuries for myself leaving me to take the extra gpt from France and Russia, mostly France, by selling them luxuries and resources, but My forces weren't ready for war at the time, and I didn't want to see what kind of corruption changes I would have.

As it was, every city in my empire was considered productive. Though my least productive one only produced 2 shields with WLTKD and a courthouse, all my other cities, including those on the islands, were above 50% productive. So I let them produce their magic and easily went through industrial ages with 4/turn and 300+ gpt while only having 0-10% luxuries till sanitation took hold.

Upon hitting modern times, thanks to researching computers first I still got 4-5/turn techs sometimes with - gpt though as the luxuries were upped to 20% for all cities to be in WLTKD. And spent some extra production building an army just in case America, France or Russia got any ideas.

America finally had enough and attacked Russia. At first, I send a couple of destroyers and battleships to watch the action from the outskirts, but it became more and more obvious that America would wipe out the Russians, even though the battle was with cavalry and infantry, so I began to meddle more, first with my ships keeping his ironclads from bombarding, then finally with the protection of modern armor forcing the Americans to send troops via sea to continue the attack. Couldn't let the Americans destroy them.

This was made possible by having RoPs with America, France and Russia. I continually had RoPs with all countries except India who would accept an RoP deal with me even when I offered 14000+ gold, 341 gpt, iron, horses, saltpeter, spices, ivory, wines, incense and dyes and 3 techs they didn't have. My advisor at least got down to "I doubt they'd approve this deal" instead of having them be insulted at my generous offer.

I'd keep RoPs with Persia, China and Rome as a part of my gift of a luxury so I wouldn't forget to give them a trade, free as it may be to keep them from wanting to sign embargos against me if a war did break out. I got RoPs with America, France, and Russia as a part of my tech selling to them. They wouldn't sign one otherwise.

[badams52]

Originally posted by Arrian
Delhi is too close, IMO.

Agreed

[badams52]

The end was near

With my line of cease-fire installed, American and Russia soon signed a peace treaty leaving my armies in their territory if ever I desired to quick strike and destroy America. Using an RoP with Russia or France gives my troops a good place to rest if ever I decided I wanted to capture American cities, but I was too busy milking them for all their worth in gpt, and addicted to the extra gold they'd give me to want to take the luxuries myself and worry about culture flipping.

Here's the last screenshot of my inevitable victory with the spaceship launch in 1782! This was probably the first time I ever finished a game without having a single civ killed-off, so I had to keep a shot of all of the leaders, none looking beaten up.

By the end, you can see the massive build-up of my forces which could have easily wiped out the American army...what you can't see are the mountains of bombers and 30 artillery I have waiting to bombard as well.

The 5439 score was my second largest - mostly because I hate playing on large maps.

Well, thanks for the great AU game alexman, but I believe that's the end of my Civ III career. It's been taking too much time out of my life and now I must say good-bye to the game and move on to other non computer-related enjoyments (read wife). But this doesn't mean I'll leave the boards. I can always play vicariously through the rest of you and your AARs. But before I leave, I will give you one last post on this game and the things I found interesting.

[badams52]

On GS and other things...

My take on the GS

Though I did get UP in this game, I don't think the GS were all that great. They did allow me to quickly dispatch any non-iron rich societies. I agree that movement is helpful v. swordsmen allowing them to retreat and ultimately achieving the same results without the large numbers, but the cost of 50 makes them hardly easy to build so I don't see them as a great advantage over swordsmen with a 50 production cost. I practically needed to upgrade my warriors to create a large enough force to begin my reign of terror...it would have taken too long to produce them from scratch once iron working was known.

At the same time, they did give me the ability to quickly run through the enemy with their movement bonus. The replacement factor (cities building them while I lose them in battle) seemed about the same as swordsmen. Given a good setup, they are a great force. Not as good as immortals, but better than legionary for a warring civ. I would still say Persia is my favorite civ, largely because of immortals and industrial.

Ralphing

Yes, I ralphed my way though this scenario, though the map didn't set itself up for a true ralph (a 6 ring set between the capital and the first OCP ring), I found that ralphing is quite nice for a warring civ when you want to produce units in the ancient age. Once I got to building knights and mustetmen, (and in this case GS) their output was less than desireable. The size 6 cities using grasslands didn't produce enough shields.

I was able to build 4 camp sites though and one got disbanded when space became to tight in the middle age. If you are going to ralph, I think it's best to either (1) build outward in one direction first - build camp then move out again and build 1 or 2 OCP cities before your second camp or (2) build some OCP cities then fill camp sites in the gaps later.

Option 1 is better since your workers will be more effecient building roads to cities and allow faster settler/worker/unit builds.

Once REXing is finished, it's time to set camp sites to build military and nothing but. One camp site ended up on the ocean so it got to build a few of my exporatory galleys which was quite nice.

When it came time to disband, the extra 18 workers did come in handy when buildilng the railroads in the industrial era. And with all those mountains, I believe at one time I had 60+ paid workers. Before, I rarely went above 20 paid workers and worked off slaves very often. Industrial civs have their advantages.

Then with the full effect of sanitation, my beginning core cities were still the core and with OCP, had some of the greatest production out there. The IW city I had was part of the core and ended up producing 190+ shields at it's height.

The ralphing technique also helped me feel good about buildling the FP in my original core and palace jump later since the original core was going to be at OCP distance giving them high production and high output.

So yes, I had my cake and ate it too!

UP and not letting the worthless civs hang around

Okay, so I mentioned this earlier, and I would love to go back and see the difference, but having given up civ, I will allow this for someone else some day, but I believe that leaving the other 4 civs from my continent with a few useless cities actually helped my UP cause greatly. I don't know if others had the same pullaway I had near the end, but on my monarch-level game, I launched my spaceship (with having researched through genetics as well) before America, France, or Russia got to flight, and mass production even with me selling America, France and Russia 2 - 3 techs every 20 turns for their luxuries (one from each), communism (from Russia who was farther behind), espionage (from America), RoP (wouldn't have gotten it without paying large sums of money, seems they knew how I used it with India earlier), and a good portion of gpt.

I would love to go back and test this but unfortunately, civ has been determined to be detrimental to my health so I would love for somebody else to go back and start from one of my saved games and

(1) without warring, don't sell any techs to America and France and see if you can get a bigger tech lead over them.

(2) take out only Persia, India, Rome and China and see if you can still get the same or better tech lead over America and France.

My guess is that with #1, your tech research rate would drop, but with all the luxuries and strategic resources you could sell them, you would end up farther ahead in techs though it takes longer in "time." And with #2, I think your tech lead won't be as big in the end.

If anyone's up to the challenge, let me know and I'll post an appropriate save game circa 1170 AC, though it's before I whittled down India to it's smaller once-city size.

Getting the most gold out of your luxury dealing

I've mentioned this elsewhere, but it's worth repeating as I used it during this game for the first time to it's fullest extent.

I sold to America and France my 5 luxuries and sometimes resources 1 per turn and if they had the cash. When you start doing this, you may initially miss out on some gpt - they might have more than you can get from just 1 luxury at the discounted rate - but once you get to the 7th and 8th luxury (if they still have the gpt) the gpt increases.

For example, I finally got to sell all 5 excess luxuries to France. They started out at 16 gpt for the first few, but once the 20 turns came around, each time a luxury came up to be renegotiated, each one garnered a 25 gpt price, the same price they paid earlier the first time I sold them the 7th and 8th luxuries I sold them.

This happens because in the beginning France only has 3 luxuries and the 4th one provides 2x happy faces. The next turn I ask about another one and it now costs France 3x happy faces. Next turn is number six and it also costs 3x. Next turn is number seven and now it costs France 4x. Next turn is number eight which also costs France 4x. When the 20 years is up on the fourth luxury I sold them earlier, it now costs them 4x instead of the 2x they bought it at before, and you get the full value instead of the discounted price.

Hmmm, come to think of it, there is another way to do it on the same turn. Talk to France, sell luxury, talk to France again, sell luxury, rinse and repeat. But you will have to monitor your deal(s) and make sure that you deal with France on the turn they come up for renewal and renew them one at a time so that France still has the other 4 while you deal with them. That's the ways to do it! Now if only I was still playing...

And by the same token, when you buy luxuries from other civs, make sure you deal for all on the same turn and don't spread them out if you can help it.

Of course when wars happen, the AIs will have less gpt to give to you and if they don't ask to renegotiate, you shouldn't ask to renegotiate with them cause that'll cause them to cancel the deal you have with them.

There's also a special exploit on strategic resources in that the AI will never ask to renegotiate them even if he now has a source available to him. If you have auto renegotiate on, the AI will appear to renegotiate and will be willing to give you the current deal you have, but if you click to renegotiate, the deal will disappear.

Well, that's all for now, till I can think of other things to discuss...

[Chemical Ollie]

You can take a break from Civing, Baddams, but you can never quit. I also take 1-2 month breaks but I always return, more eager than ever!

[theNiceOne]

Originally posted by badams52 By the way, you can still abuse it even with letting it expire as I did with the Indians (more when I post my final AAR). You just move your troops next to whichever cities you want to capture, let the ROP expire, declare war. You don't get the ROP rape rep hit this way and still ge the benefits of ROP rape.

No you can't. You get a ROP rape hit even when you don't have a ROP if you declare war while having units inside the opponent's border. Do this and try to get a ROP with another nation later and it will tell you that you ROP raped the first civ.

This makes perfect sense, since by doing what you suggest, you show that no civ should trust you to have units inside their borders.

[Fosse]

I haven't read through this thread yet... I've spent the last week at home and with limited computer time. BUt, I did manage to get a couple of 206 hours in, and I know it's kind of late in the class... but here's where I 'm at so far...
Playing on Emporer
I drop the settler right where he is, expecting to eventually have a granary settler pump after chopping the forest. But first, I mine a bonus grassland and start on my traditional militaristic build queue: warrior to explore, warrior for MP, barracks, settler, archers archer archer archer until I can build another settler.

I couldn't bring myself to ralph... though having those camps would have been handy in this game. I just think of my cities as more permanant, call me a sissy. I wind up placing the first ring about 4 tiles away, and after that the 2nd and third ring are usually 2 or 3, depending on terrain.

I expand mostly north, with a warrior exploring to the south. I make contact with Persia and India early, before my first archer is done, and I give Persia Warrior code and ceremonial burial for their pottery and 30 gold (I've already decided not to take them out right away, so I decide I'm comfortable with this).

Then I trade warrior code, pottery, and 65 gold for India's alphabet and bronze working, and I start researching Iron working.

I chop the forest and complete the granary in Entremont, then start my settler building from there. My other two or three cities at this point build barracks, warriors for MP and eventual GS, and then archers.

I meet China in 3200 BC, buy masonry for alphabet, and that same turn discover wheel from a hut on the east coast of the continent. At this point, I have at least one tech over each civ (even if it's a different one for each), and they have nothing worth trading... I revel in what I know will be a short lived early game tech lead!


I make the decision to archer rush China. I realize that China would be a great battle ground for the Gallics, as oppossed to the mountains and jungle terrains of Persia and India... but I want the good land out of my first war, and the Ivory coast of the north.

I wrap up my city building with about seven cities, including one deep in the jungle to control some dyes, all pumping out either regular spears for MP, or vet warriors and archers for upgrading and rushing. Then I bop a Chinese settler with a warrior escort to begin the war in 1625 BC.

For some reason I never seem to have more than three archers in any one place at a time, and they can never get to cities before fighting Chinese archers or warriors... once that happens I have them wait to heal, and by the time that's done there are more units to kill. What I wind up with is a long war, no ground gained or lost, but my tactical edge over the AI means I'm losing almost no units, and I have a pretty big Elite corps, perfect for leader building.

I discover Iron, and see that the one source near me is in just outside of China's borders... and some culture will give it to them... I start my slaves building a road to it, both for my attack and eventual iron.
A turn later, I get my first leader.

I've slipped badly in tech by now, so I call India, and they let me buy literacy for 170 gold. I rush the GL right away, and set myself to researching monarchy (it's my experience that once I build the GL, AI civs are content to stay in despotism forever).

At this point I have two setbacks... the first is a troup of Barbarians attack my units in the field, and leave China's alone... the second is that China has managed to bring a few archers who slipped by me into my land, and my archers are too far away to get to them. With the cities they are near being defended only by warriors, having luxuries, and being my key archer pumps, this makes me very nervous.

I upgrade all the warriors I can afford, and have a Gallic Swordsman army to deal with those archers. I don't want to use it, because I'm still a ways from monarchy... but I decide that I must.

I kill the archers, start my GA in 610 BC, and sent a bunch of vets (and an elite!) GS straight past CHina's front line towards Beijing. It takes a few turns to get there, and I send a second wave of GS to the wester Chinese cities in the meantime. This gets to be exciting.

I take Beijing in one turn, killing the three spearmen with no trouble. At the end of this turn, Rome contacts me, they know monarchy! Somebody traded communications to them, and now I suspect I just may learn monarchy sooner than I thought! I'm right, the next turn they trade it to Perisa, and I start my grueling one turn anarchy.

I crown myself the next turn, and to celebrate, my second leader is born from another GS.

I am strongly considering an army, the pyramids, and waiting for a palace. I decide to go with the pyramids for a few reasons: the AI has been building them for centuries, this will surly hurt them a bit. I'm wrapping up my war with China, and have a HUGE tract of land to drop settlers into. I'm sure having free granaries from turn 1 for about a dozen cities would be nice. So I do it.