Apolyton University

[Theseus]

Hey pb2!!

Well, I wanna get started.

Let's talk Exploration.

Any comments on the settings?

Can someone make suggestions for a minimalist mod to start with?

Edit: I know Huge turns people off (myself included), but this is meant to be a "partial" game.

[Catt]

Re: The Curriculum

Okay. I've done my ruminating. First off, three cheers for Theseus for pushing the concept and doing all the hard work (coming up with ideas, keeping the interest alive, surviving outright thread-jackings from game designers . . ). And three cheers for Vel for stimulating the creation of a "standard mod" -- there must be some mods out there that work to the AI's strengths.

With all the pleasantries aside, my thoughts on the curriculum:

Originally posted by Theseus
OK, without further adieu, a humble attempt at creating 10 "trials" for the group. They're sort of in order, but my feeling is that everything is up for discussion and change. I've tried to put them in an order that acknowledges the upcoming patch. BTW, I think the order is conducive to starting before getting the standard mod done.

1. Exploration

Goal: Be the first among us to uncover the entire map. Any predictions on the earliest date?

Settings: Huge, archipelago, 60% water, 16 civs, warm, wet, 5B, raging, Monarch. All win types (although not necessary to play through).

Civ: Rome

Notes: The Great Lighthouse will be key. The settings should produce some big islands that will require land units for exploration. 16 civs means map trading is critical. This is one that doesn;t need to be played all the way to the win.

This is one of the few "courses" that I think is susceptible to a totally artificial game play that is unlikely to be repeated in "normal" gaming. Of course I could be very surprised to learn of many other effective strats, but my initial gameplan would focus on building a secure home island, and an (artificially) powerful civ - lots of dense cities. Beelining to the GL, pumping out galleys and cheap foot units for the galleys and going for broke while trying to turtle. Trading for maps at any cost, and ignoring research after Astronomy (or is it Magnetism?) and its ability to sail the oceans. Then just getting ships out to distant ocean tiles.

Anyone have any other ideas (I don't ) to test our exploration skills?

2. Crowding & Culture

Goal: Give peace a chance!! But no turtling... this is specifically about cultural expansion. How many AI cities can you flip? War only allowed to capture GWs and resources (or in defense). Gold star for a Cultural win!!

Settings: Large, Pangaea, 80% water, 12 civs, normal, temperate, 4B, no barbs, Monarch. Cultural and Spaceship win types.

Civ: Babs

Notes: Haven't seen much on 'poly about cultural steamrolling... let's see what people come up with.

Sounds like fun - and a much different style game for most of us. I would even say we take a page from OCC rules - no war at all accept a defensive war (can't get culture from captured wonders anyway).

3. Crowding & War

Goal: Psychotic bastards, here's your chance!! At least 1 city must be captured in each aggressive phase (with some crossover allowed): Archer, Horseman, Swordsman, Knight, Cavalry, Tanks, MA... however far you get before the win. Gold star for Warrior too. Must win owning all GWs.

Settings: Standard, continents, 80% water, 8 civs, warm, normal, 3B, raging, Emperor. Conquest-only win.

Civ: Japan

Notes: Not required.

Lots of fun. Note that if it's conquest only, then by default we will have to own all GWs at the end. Maybe leave it at domination and conquest (so we have to deal with not tripping the domination count and the raging barbs at the same time?)

4. Resource Poor

Goal: Much like the iceberg, we need to learn how to deal with adverse conditions.

Settings: Large, continents, 60% water, 9 civs, cold, dry, 3B, Monarch (gotta give a break here). All win types.

Civ: China

Notes: / nods to Aeson. / It's gonna be ugly... gotta go Machiavellian on the AI's ass.

Lots of fun. Aeson's start, however, looked far too painful for me (a Monarch, occassional Emperor, player).

5. The Golden Age

Goals: Maximize your GA... show how your GA leads to the win. Both military and GW triggers allowed (and encouraged). Not quite a gold star, but GAs with the IW in place are to be admired.

Settings: "Standard" across the board. Standard, continents, 70% water, 8 civs, normal, temperate, 4B, roaming, Monarch. All win types.

Civ: Zulu

Notes: This should be interesting, given the many different philosophies. I might even play it twice.

Also lots of fun. But I think we need to pick a civ with a medieval or even industrial UU, or at least a UU that is an "optional" build. With the Zulu (or the Greeks) we will be forced to build Impis (or Hoplites) early, and a crazy AI bastard near us could declare war, attack and lose to an Impi, and trigger our GA - no chance for us to time the GA (which would seem important in trying to show how we utilized it well towards the win, and to earn our near gold star).

6. Great and Small Wonders

Goal: Build as many as you can, either straight up or with GLs. Captures don't count, although if they're useful, go for it. BIG gold star if you can show you beat an AI civ to a GW by 4 turns or less (@$@$#@^%$%#!).

Settings: Large, continents, 70% water, 10 civs, normal, temperate, 4B, roaming, Monarch. All win types.

Civ: Egypt

Notes: I think this will be the toughest.

A challenge.

7. Science

Goal: A blinding tech lead. Is it possible to hit Modern before any AI gets to Industrial? The comparison will be on the number of techs lead at the win. Gold star for a super-science city. A twist: Must own all science GWs at the win.

Settings: Small, continents, 60% water, 6 civs, wet, temperate, 5B, no barbs, Monarch. All win types.

Civ: Greece

Notes: My guess is that the tortoise beats the hare.

A real challenge - could be the toughest of them all. And my guess is that the bloodthirsty warmonger beats the toroise!

8. Naval Power

Goal: Rule the seas. Must build AND use at least 1 of every naval unit until the win. Must build at least 10 Privateers. Gold star for innovative use of MoWs, subs, blockades & interdiction.

Settings: Standard, archipelago, 70% water, 7 civs, temperate, dry, restless, Emporer. All win types.

Civ: English

Notes: Hmmm, if you rule the seas, what does that mean for intercontinental invasions?

Fun and needed. Everyone should be forced to play the English at least once

9. Isolated

Goal: You're all alone... what do you do?

Settings: Huge, archipelago, 60% water, 10 civs, normal, temperate, 5B, restless, Emperor. All win types.

Civ: Persia

Notes: A builder's delight, until...

I'd even make it more of an isolationist world -- a huge or large map but with only 4 or 5 civs -- the goal being to create an isolationist paradise until Magnetism.

10. Resources and Capitols

Goal: Defined warfare. Must win having captured ALL resources and the capitol of each AI civ. If you want to capture the rest, that's up to you.

Settings: Standard, continents, 60% water, 7 civs, normal, temperate, raging, 5B, Emperor. All win types.

Civ: Germany

Notes: UP (tm) in action. Panzer blitzkriegs. Intercontinental invasions. Much fun.

All instances of resources? Or just one of each resource? May actually be very difficult to do if one must have absolutely all resources -- we would all get a lesson in colony building and defense in trying to avoid a domination victory.

What do others think?

Theseus - great job in spearheading this.

Catt

[MiloMilo]

Wow. Love the concept but, I think I've spoiled myself. I think I've been playing too long on Regent. Maybe it's time to head out into the big bad world of Emperor... (quaking in boots)... Anything to get into Poly U.!

[Theseus]

Re: Re: The Curriculum

Originally posted by Catt
1. Exploration

This is one of the few "courses" that I think is susceptible to a totally artificial game play that is unlikely to be repeated in "normal" gaming. Of course I could be very surprised to learn of many other effective strats, but my initial gameplan would focus on building a secure home island, and an (artificially) powerful civ - lots of dense cities. Beelining to the GL, pumping out galleys and cheap foot units for the galleys and going for broke while trying to turtle. Trading for maps at any cost, and ignoring research after Astronomy (or is it Magnetism?) and its ability to sail the oceans. Then just getting ships out to distant ocean tiles.

Anyone have any other ideas (I don't ) to test our exploration skills?

I know that this might seem artificial, but I don;t think it is. Think about implications for the utility of the Great Library, for Regicide, etc.

Was it the first mini-tourney where finding the other continent was critical?

In terms of game plan, in general I think that's the outline everyone will follow. I suspect some twists and turns depending on the map, and especially in terms of the Lighthouse. I'd guessing on some eye openers (don;t know what yet) from this one.

Again, I don;t plan on finishing this one.

I'd like to get started... anybody have a problem with using the stock bic file, especially with the patch around the corner?

2. Crowding & Culture

Sounds like fun - and a much different style game for most of us. I would even say we take a page from OCC rules - no war at all accept a defensive war (can't get culture from captured wonders anyway).

But you can get positive effects, and I don;t think we should bar that.

3. Crowding & War

Lots of fun. Note that if it's conquest only, then by default we will have to own all GWs at the end. Maybe leave it at domination and conquest (so we have to deal with not tripping the domination count and the raging barbs at the same time?)

I agree, domination too.

4. Resource Poor

Lots of fun. Aeson's start, however, looked far too painful for me (a Monarch, occasional Emperor, player).

I didn't say DESTITUTE! I think the settings will just generate awful terrain. I'd still want a halfway decent start.

5. Golden Age

Also lots of fun. But I think we need to pick a civ with a medieval or even industrial UU, or at least a UU that is an "optional" build. With the Zulu (or the Greeks) we will be forced to build Impis (or Hoplites) early, and a crazy AI bastard near us could declare war, attack and lose to an Impi, and trigger our GA - no chance for us to time the GA (which would seem important in trying to show how we utilized it well towards the win, and to earn our near gold star).

I was originally going to suggest Egypt, but I had selected them for #6.

I wanted to use a very early UU, to give people a choice of when to apply the GA. Your comment indicates a presiposition to using in in the Meieval Age, but I'll bet there are some other thoughts.

How about Egypt for this one, and Persia for #6?

6. Great and Small Wonders
and 7. Science

A challenge.

A real challenge - could be the toughest of them all. And my guess is that the bloodthirsty warmonger beats the tortoise!

As suggested above, Persia for #6.

Good point on #7. How about we disallow domination and conquest win types?

8. Naval Power

Fun and needed. Everyone should be forced to play the English at least once

Depending on the patch, this one could probably use some mods. Move the Ironclad back, etc.

9. Isolated

I'd even make it more of an isolationist world -- a huge or large map but with only 4 or 5 civs -- the goal being to create an isolationist paradise until Magnetism.

I'm all for that. It'll also help slower computers, at least till the very end. Maybe this trial chould have 2 "endpoints", the first being when all or almost all land is in some civ's territory, and the second being the actual win.

Due to using Persia in #6, I'd then suggest France for this one.

10. Resources and Capitols

All instances of resources? Or just one of each resource? May actually be very difficult to do if one must have absolutely all resources -- we would all get a lesson in colony building and defense in trying to avoid a domination victory.

One of each, and have it "connected." Capturing every single resource and every capitol would probably just be more or less a conquest victory. OTOH, if someone wants to totally go for it, god bless'em, gold star.

[Velociryx]

Still readin' and will compile all the mod notes, ideas, and observations for review during my upcoming cross-country drive (nothing like driving at three in the morning, chain smoking, guzzling tea, and readin' mod notes!)

When I get back (3100 miles, three days, eleven states), I will see what sorts of step changes we can make to test this stuff incrementally.

-=Vel=-

[Catt]

Re: Re: Re: The Curriculum

Originally posted by Theseus


I know that this might seem artificial, but I don;t think it is. Think about implications for the utility of the Great Library, for Regicide, etc.

I was actually referring to the Lighthouse with "GL" in this context -- I am willing to play it, of course, but, on further reflection, if the end goal is exposure of the enitre map, it simply won't happen until Magnetism and the ability to travel in ocean -- I suspect then that the real race will be a race to Magnetism.

I was originally going to suggest Egypt, but I had selected them for #6.

I wanted to use a very early UU, to give people a choice of when to apply the GA. Your comment indicates a presiposition to using in in the Meieval Age, but I'll bet there are some other thoughts.

How about Egypt for this one, and Persia for #6?

Doesn't have to be Egypt; no predisposition to middle ages GA; and I agree that you need to have an early UU to provide maximum flexibilty on player timing. My objections to the Zulu and the Greeks are that each of them has as their UU the basic defensive unit for the entire ancient age (until Feudalism, or later with the Greeks). In order to avoid an early GA, the player would have to perform a supremely unnatural act: (1) avoid any war (as declaror or declaree) where a defender may actually die; or (2) forgo building the most basic city and troop defender for an entire age. Any of the other ancient age UU civs would seem to avoid this "trap" -- allowing a very early GA for those who want it but also allowing relatively "normal" gameplay until one affirmatively decides to trigger a GA (while it may be painful to avoid usage of a legionary or immortal, at least, if one wanted to have a middle ages GA, one could use other attackers in the ancient age). So, I would be fine with Egypt or any other ancient age UU civ other than Zulu or Greeks.

Good point on #7. How about we disallow domination and conquest win types?

And maybe disallow reducing any civ beyond X cities? I'm struggling with this one (perhaps unnecessarily, since I haven't tried to reach the goals before ) because it seems to me the only (or near only) way to achieve a full age's tech lead would be to permanently reduce each civ to one or two cities (a la Arrian's UP game or many of the milked Hall of Fame games).

[Arrian]

And maybe disallow reducing any civ beyond X cities? I'm struggling with this one (perhaps unnecessarily, since I haven't tried to reach the goals before ) because it seems to me the only (or near only) way to achieve a full age's tech lead would be to permanently reduce each civ to one or two cities (a la Arrian's UP game or many of the milked Hall of Fame games)/

My experience too. Hell, that's why I seek UP! It's about the tech and the wonders. Even WITH UP, a full age tech lead is hard to do. Hell, I'm really happy with Tanks vs. Riflemen... which is less than a full age.

-Arrian

[Theseus]

Whaddya you guys think about doing the first one without the mod?

I'm itchin' to go.

[albiedamned]

Re: Re: Re: The Curriculum

Originally posted by Theseus

Depending on the patch, this one could probably use some mods. Move the Ironclad back, etc.

Only if the patch also reduces the volume for the ironclad!

[Harovan]

I have another proposal for a nice challenge:

Terrain development

Goal: Be the first civ with tanks. Gold Star for those who are the first civ entering the industrial age.

Settings: Small, continents, 70% water, temperate, dry, young (3 bill years), Emperor, AI civs are America, China, Egypt, France and Persia. They are all industrious and have a big advantage on the rough map settings.

Civ: India (at least they are religious )

[johncmcleod]

Thank you very much for posting this curriculum. It's very helpful and I dfinitely will try every one. That's very kind of you, to work hard for the benefit of people like me. Thanks! Oh, and I think #4 will be fairly easy for me. When I first got the game and saw the climate stuff, I chose wet because I like the rain and cold because I like cold places, and I did this not knowing what affect it had on the game. And it's been kind of a tradition; since then I always do cold and wet. Every single game I've played. These challenges will be the first time I've done something else.


Edited: Oh, forgot to add something. Are the difficulty levels unchangeable? I have a friend that just bought this game and monarch is too hard for him...suggestions?

[Theseus]

No problem, John. Unfortunately, can't change the difficulty level once the 4000BC save has been made.

I'm gonna generate the first map for Exploration. I think I'm gonna ratchet it down to Large with 12 civs, in deference to those that can't stand Huge.

[nbarclay]

Originally posted by FrustratedPoet
Mod Stuff:
I think that +1hp per era would be very useful.
I think almost everyone agrees that a boost to naval movement would be a good thing. Perhaps +1 for Sail units and +2 for Non-Sail?

I don't think ironclads should get a bigger boost than frigates and galleons. Their claim to fame was their armor, not their speed.

How about tweaking the Tech Tree to get rid of some of the really useless techs?
Other techs could have their cost adjusted to keep the same time to complete the path, it's just that some of them are meaningless at the moment.
Or would this be too big a change?

Techs with no direct usefulness do serve some purposes:

1) They let you switch research back and forth more easily - research the useless tech, then switch to something else, and then switch back. If the cost were all combined into a single tech, you couldn't switch in the middle.

2) They make it harder for rich civs to pull way ahead because there are two four-turn lower limits instead of just one.

3) They can provide a common prerequisite cost for two techs that branch off from them.

4) They provide smaller, more "bite-sized" chunks for tech trading purposes.

I'll admit that it's little annoying researching something and not being able to do anything new as a result, but I think the mechanism works pretty well as is.

DISCLAIMER: I don't know how high the chances are that I'll get into playing with a modded game, so you folks can feel free to ignore me if you want to.

Nathan

[W4r_Machine]

Geez, I never thought of reading this much! Count me in.

I have no idea what is going on but if I could get my hands on the save game then I'll play it.

P.S. If it's modded then I'm out.

Great Job Theseus

[nbarclay]

In the science game, I think there should be a rule that intercontinental attacks are strictly off limits. That way, success would have to come from strong research by the player rather than from using war to cripple all of one's rivals. After all, the goal is to test and/or build up our skills in doing research, right?

In regard to the "resource poor" game, the dry, cold, and three billion parts look suspiciously like the July tournament game, although the July tourney's starting position is too favorable for those with an Aesonesque frame of mind.

Nathan