Early Landing Comparison Game #1

[La Fayette]

Some comments about my main mistakes:
1) Too few cities (only 6 until the very endgame).
2) Too short overseas trading (mostly the Aztecs).
3) No colonies.
4) No 'modern' trading.
5) Bad use of the road/RR bonus in Rome (2 routes out of 3 blocked by previous trading with fat Chinese cities and I was unable to unblock them ).

solo is right: "it takes time to get the hang of it" and I was probably more spoilt than many others after so much time spent fighting in many scenarios.

I shall never be a high performer at early landing, because I don't want to play this game with helper programs and a lot of spreadsheets for side calculations, but I enjoy it nevertheless because I very much prefer to learn by playing and getting good advice (thank you once more, solo) than by reading strategy books.

[rjmatsleepers]

Originally posted by solo

RJM,

Would you happen to have a save of your game made before attempting two deliveries to the same city?

I'm afraid I don't have a save (at least I don't think so), but it happens quite a lot so I'll keep a look out for it. Part of the problem may be that I've been doing precisely the wrong things ie delivering the middle or left most commodity first rather than the one on the right.

I've been practising trading techniques. I got a real kick out of delivering gold demanded by a size 23 Celtic city from my size 25 science city for 1440

My unblocking still needs improving though. Sometimes it worked a treat. Sometimes I failed to establish a new route. (Presumably the base trade in the AI cities was too high - I guess there is not much that can be done about that). Sometimes I established a new route, but the commodity on the new route was the same and supply remained blocked - a real bummer .

Also I am missing something about delivering food to help build a womder. I tried this several times, but it never had any impact on the supply commodities . There must be some key feature that I didn't understand. I'll go back and re-read your tutorial.

Roll on comparison game #2!

RJM at Sleepers

[Grigor]

I fear that I will not get to finish this game with concerts coming up, but I played to 180 AD as follows:

Early Landing Game 1

BC
4000 pop hut (archers) - disband
3950 Found Rome on River within reach of wine special. Research Alph
3900 * Found Veii-SSC on coast in 4special site.
3800 Alph=>Writ
3500* Writing=>BW (planning to beeline to Trade after Rep)
3450 hut found in city radius and destroyed. Rome's territory explored now.
3350 Both cites size 2 working grapes.
3150 BW=>CoL
3050 hut: Archers (disband)
3000 Mongols appear
2950 Mongols: trade BW for CB, peace. Ask for tribute -uh-oh - they give HB. This slows us down, and Monarchy is now indicated.
2900* Hut: nomads (disband - wah!)
2850 most powerful: 1. Mongols; 3. Romans. Rome builds Settlers
2750Antium founded one sleaze from Rome.
2700* Veii builds settlers
2500* CoL=>Mon Cumae founded Science 10 turns
2100* Mon=>Lit -- Instant Rev. Cov: Monarchy
1950 Cumae, Mongol stopper, builds Phalanx. First rest.
4 Cities, researching Literacy (27 of 112) (14 bk/turn)(8th tech), then rep, Currency, Trade. We will want temples before Republic, or 4 more cities. Monarchy allows 6, Republic 8. Science: 8 turns
1850 Antium builds settlers. Mongols have a legion, most likely from a hut.
1650 SSC builds settlers. Literacy=> Rep (9)
1550 Rome builds settlers.
1250 Rep=>Currency. Instant revolt. Gov: Rep. Archers kill a warrior.
1150 Archer dies on our Phalanx=>vet.. Disband far-flung warrior. [who has not yet discovered the Chinese...]
925 Veii(SSC) builds temple.
900 Pompeii founded on spice river.
875 Currency=>Trade
850* Largest: 2. Romans. 5. Mongols
800 SSC size 3. Lux to 50%
725 Trade=>Myst
700 Mongols- give Monarchy, currency, Republic.
600 Myst=>Phil
475 Mongols: gift all.
450* Philosophy. Maps=>pottery
425 Lux to 50
375 Neapolis Hides to SSC (d, 48) [I don't have this trade thing yet...]
325 Pots=>Seaf
275 lux back to 30. all cities size 5
250* Beijing builds HG
175 Neapolis hides to SSC (d,60)
150* Seaf=>Wheel. SSC builds library.
75 Wheel=>Mas Neapolis Salt to Cumae(d, 52)
25 Neapolis salt to Pompeii (d, 36)
1AD Chinese horse appear. give tons of science. Trade Maps.
100 Const=>
140 Aztecs: give trade, seaf for peace, math, share maps. They have fat cities
160 rome gold to Karakorum (d, 144)
180 Colossus next.

Second rest. 7 cities, SSC size 7, Colossus next turn via caravan, researcing Engineering (21st tech)(567 bk needed) lux at 30%, 78bk/turn. Demo 3 techs away (eng, inv, bank) have met only 3 civs, no embassies. MPE? I think the Aztecs might have useful stuff for me. Empire is roaded.

This doesn't look much like an early landing, but it is a promising start.

Since nobody can access my saved games, I won't try to post one.

[solo]

La Fayette,

You've zeroed in on what to change for the next game. I almost ruined supply in my SSC in a previous game, where two commodities were blocked in the same way, by late trades to a fat city. I think that since the SSC has so many trade arrows, excellent payoffs are still available from smaller cities on other continents, and trading with them decreases the chances of blocking routes.

As far as spreadsheets go, I must agree that there are so many things that can be calculated, that it might be more enjoyable to just wait and see what happens. As far as trade goes, I think that as long as a person learns some unblocking techniques, there are usually enough cities demanding the goods being supplied. The extra calculations to figure out supply and demand lists, or the timing of short tech lists, etc., do help cut some turns off the length of a game, but I think overall knowledge and more playing experience help the most.

RJM,

I feel all tingly, too, when payoffs are over 1000 gold!

The next game will get under way as soon as this one is over. In the meantime, you may want to just practice and experiment with unblocking in a test game, in order to gain experience in what works and what doesn't. In the examples, I tried to demonstrate circumstances where wonder bread and other techniques did not work, and why they didn't, but there's so subsitute for seeing this for yourself in an actual game. Once you really get what is going on, then you'll know what to do in the next comparison game. Of course, if you are able to post a save with an example of a particular problem you are having, I'd be happy to look at it and attempt to explain what is going on.

Grigor,

Too bad that you have concerts keeping you from completing this game. Thanks for posting your partial result, as it was fun and interesting to read how you played the BC years.

Please note that if you and some others want more time to complete the first game, please let me know, and I can extend the deadline another week.

[Bloody Monk]

Solo,

Several times in your logs you wrote something to the effect of,"...which is more than enough beakers for the next advance..."

This brings to mind several questions, if you don't mind...

Knowing exactly how many beakers will be needed would let one know if more libraries/universities/research labs should be built; and conversely, if you are clear to do other things, ie, begin stockpiling freights.

1) Is there a table with this info some where??

2) Does Samson's formula in the thread "The Cost of Research Explained"--in the Great Library--apply to medium maps?? What about other map sizes??

3) Are there other factors that YOU consider related to this general area??

Thanks,

Monk

[Scouse Gits]

I think I can help here (with my record I had best be tentative)

To find the number of beakers required for the next advance - remove all Eins, set the science slider to zero and the number of turns indicated states how many beakers the advance will cost

and

Pencil and paper (or Win Calculator) to carefully count every beaker into the pot

or have I missed the point?

SG[1]

[solo]

Monk,

As SG(1) says, a temporary science setting of zero (after making sure there are not any active scientists) tells you the exact number of beakers needed for the next advance. Later in the game, when 2 advances per turn are possible, you can add 26 to this amount to get the cost of the second advance that you want to earn with city science. Make sure the key civ is up to date when making this assumption.

Knowing the exact number of beakers needed is very handy, and allows you to incease taxes on turns where you are not needing all of your city science to secure the next advance. This is especially true when the SSC is your capital, making it the last city to contribute beakers towards the advance being researched. You don't want to waste beakers that could be converted to revenue, since any excess will not be carried over towards learning the next advance.

Since caravan and freight delivery beakers equal the amount of the payoffs, their contribution towards earning the next advance can be subtracted from its cost to see how many more beakers are needed from city science.

I believe small map tech costs are 4/5 that of medium maps and that large map tech costs are the reciprocal of that. Samson's "Cost of research ..." thread applies to medium maps, which we will be using in our comparison games.

Knowing the exact tech costs, and having good estimates of freight deliveries, allows me to plan for those turns earning two techs in advance. Earlier in the game, this info allows me to sustain one turn advances when city science alone is not enough.

As for getting a space ship ready, my criteria is to deliver any freight that can earn 200 or more gold, since this is the equivalent amount of cash needed to buy 50 shields worth of any space part. Also, when Flight is discovered, I try to balance research speed with my ability to produce space ship parts. For example, raising more cash may become more important than two advances per turn. Why get to Fusion Power 4 or 5 turns before it can be used? At this stage, I often end up selling a helper university on the turn it was built, since the emphasis switches from research speed to raising cash very quickly!

[Bloody Monk]

Thanks, SG[1].

The key part is to know several turns in advance so there would be time to build the white goods before they would be needed, thus keeping turn-time down.

The one variable is the key civ and its level of research. Have to gift all new tech as it comes in the front door to keep the "penalty" at bay.

However, the method you describe would work out the data after the fact. I was hoping to avoid firing up an old game and pounding thru the turns. Maybe someone has already done this. My health and stamina have recently nosedived such that I may not finish this game in time if I detour to crank out this beaker data. Sitting for hours at the computer is not possible right now.

I can just hear the "purists" who bemoan the use of "spreadsheets" and other aids. I can always muddle thru.

Monk

[DrSpike]

Your landing results are all the more impressive if you are still learning the key civ and beaker cost material.

Solo better watch his back.

[Bloody Monk]

Thanks also to Solo. Your response came as I was composing the reply to SG[1].

Perhaps the 4/5 ratio can be applied to the table noted in the first Great Library paper. I'll check that out.

Monk

[solo]

Monk,

A table is not really needed, since future tech costs can be easily projected using the cost of the current tech being researched. Keep adding 26 for each new tech after the 20th.

[Bloody Monk]

Originally posted by solo
Monk,

A table is not really needed, since future tech costs can be easily projected using the cost of the current tech being researched. Keep adding 26 for each new tech after the 20th.

Apparently my brain has been slowed, too. Thanks for heads up.

Monk

[TimTheEnchanter]

Originally posted by Scouse Gits
Pencil and paper (or Win Calculator) to carefully count every beaker into the pot
SG[1]

For those not averse to using such tools, SlowThinker's Civbeakers utility will look at a .sav file and tell you exactly how many beakers are in the bank.

[SlowThinker]

Originally posted by solo
Please note that if you and some others want more time to complete the first game, please let me know, and I can extend the deadline another week.

I can't say if 1 week would be enough for me. Anyway don't mind me, since I am out of the contest already (decimated by barbs in my first attempt), so I can post my result after the deadline.

[Ben Kenobi]

It doesn't work early on, though. Would it be helpful to post a list of base beaker counts/tech without adjustors, (key civ having more/less techs than you?)



Didn't realise earlier that this was what you were asking for...