Early Landing Comparison Game #1

[SlowThinker]

Originally posted by solo
I noticed you gave up gifting techs to the Mongols, and that the current tech cost was 3280 beakers, which I was able to knock all the way down to 2132 by gifting all your tech without your permission! This shows how important tech gifts to the key civ are in reducing tech costs!

I though there is no key civ if you are supreme and you are white...

I have also learned that there is no need to exceed the maximum number of cities allowed before happiness is impacted, which on a standard map are 4 for Despotism, 6 for Monarchy, 8 for Republic, and 10 for Democracy. It takes time and resources to add and develop extra cities.

Under monarchy you need just one warrior, i.e. 10 resources more. In comparison with 60 resources needed for a city (40 shield settler + 20 food) it is negligible.

However, as trade became a more important part of my strategy, I started looking for locations facilitating this, such as ones having coastal access. With a harbor, other improvements were not needed, except for connecting roads.

I think you can found these cities (i.e. cities that will produce caravans) later.

[SlowThinker]

@all
Could you post more saves, not only the end of the game? I would like download them when I will finish.

[SCG]

Originally posted by SlowThinker
@all
Could you post more saves, not only the end of the game? I would like download them when I will finish.

well, since my start was good, i figure i could post my latest save pre-republic. Contact is only with mongols at the time, and they have pottery as the only unknown tech. Beijing has already fallen to barbarians and is #4 on the top 5 cities.

[Bloody Monk]

Originally posted by solo
Monk (and Slow Thinker, SG(2) and others responding to his comments)

These are all excellent points, and I like it when other players are thinking for themselves hoping their own ideas may produce the best results! I will comment on the points you made and on some of the replies from others.

1. Helper locations.

However, as trade became a more important part of my strategy, I started looking for locations facilitating this, such as ones having coastal access. With a harbor, other improvements were not needed, except for connecting roads.

Thanks for your comments. I am really enjoying working out these new -for me- ideas.

I completely agree, having absorbed this lesson in an earlier game. All cities have been sited on grass, on the coast, except for the station city, which I located on the grass one tile south of yours. Must have those boats!! and of course, that allows those beautiful harbors.

Originally posted by solo

2. Monarchy vs. Early Republic. Monarchy has advantages, and I like to use it myself when I expect a delay getting to Republic. In my opinion (but not Samson’s!), its carrying costs are outweighed by its many advantages over Despotism. Many of you have already proven that you can acquire techs just as quickly by using Monarchy and staying in it longer, and I may be changing my own strategy by deferring Republic until I’m ready to celebrate my SSC. Monarchy still allows tribute, which is a more likely source of income than gifts for the player rated as Supreme. However, techs ARE learned more quickly in Republic. Monk may be ahead of me so far in his game by 1 tech, but this is not because of the preferred form of government. He was able to acquire 5 techs more than I did through trades, and it was this that allowed him to “catch up” to my own pace of acquiring techs.

I am glad to hear these comments about the good points of being in Monarchy. Preparing for the coming celebration and tribute and having more settlers to make roads, etc, are very important I think.

As for the "catch up", let me be more clear (meaning: I have the advantage of your log). Comparing where we were at the point I went Republic at 525bc reveals the following. You had 15 techs, 3 by swap; I had 19 techs, 6 by swap. So by delaying Republic, I had four more techs (not 1) and only three of them came by swap. Now you got a 16th one turn later, so call it even up, after swaps. Solo, I just don't see why Republic should always be preferred. It depends, I think, on the situation. After I went Republic and you got your 16th, we each got 7 more techs with me catching Bridge one turn after you in 40ad. With more swaps again on my side, it shows you manage Republic better than me.

Originally posted by solo


4. Hanging Gardens. This is another one you can’t count out, either. The thing I like the best about it is that the SSC can celebrate earlier to a really decent size without ST. The things I dislike are that it expires fairly early, it is more cost effective when you have many cities, Pottery is an off-path tech, and Pottery triples the chances of all your cities producing salt, something you don’t want to be trading with later on.

Well, hell's bells!! Salt!! There is so much I need to learn about the fine points of Trade.

Originally posted by solo

5. Michaelangelos. I used to recommend this myself, but then discovered that there’s no need to have bigger helpers and colonies early in the game. Colosseums work just as well and can be easily rushed and maintained by the time they become necessary. The clincher is that two off-path techs must be acquired to build Michaelangelo’s. However, if the AI have learned Monotheism by the time I need colosseums, Michaelangelo’s may be the best way to go.

Leaving aside the very valid point about off-path tech carrying costs, I think a case can be made for Mike's on the basis of cost.

Colosseums cost 100 shields = two camels. For the eight camels you need for Mike's, you only get four Colosseums...only half as good, if you have eight helpers. Plus, with Mike's you pay no maintenance. Plus, with Mike's you can incrementally rush the camels. There may be something wrong with my reasoning, but it looks like a winner if built at the right time.

Originally posted by solo

Finally, Monk’s progress makes me a little nervous, having finished ST and Colossus ahead of me. His game may prove that building MP is the best way to go in this no hut tipping games.

...For now I'm enjoying very much to see that many different things are being tried and that players are not automatically assuming my opinions are correct because of some good results so far.

Solo, I don't understand this point. I didn't build MP (Marco Polo). Are you saying MP would facillitate swapping?? I might agree. If you can't get a civilized ally, and embassy; then, other embassies--or embassies with everyone-- would be a great boon.

On that last point, I absolutely believe your opinions are correct. And unlike many others, I have actually followed your lead in a successful early landing. Your ideas work, and most folk would greatly benifit by trying your way at least once. So much of what we have grown accustomed to in our games is challenged by this early landing style.

I have not a prayer of matching your result. You wrote the book on early landing...hehe, or you have promised to. Until I learn more about Trade, I fear the second half of my game will fall behind. I thought I'd try some different things just to test it out. And I too have been enjoying this repartee/discussion.

Monk

[solo]

Slow Thinker,

When you are Supreme the key civ is always the purple civ. In this game it's the Mongols. When you are Supreme and are also the purple civ, you are your own key civ, which means you will neither gain a discount or incur a penalty in tech costs. Key civs are as follows, for the other power ratings:

If you are --> then your key civ is this color:

Pathetic - -> white
Weak - -> green
Inadequate --> dark blue
Moderate --> yellow
Strong --> light blue
Mighty --> orange
Supreme --> purple

It's your power rating, not your own color, that determines who your key civ is. In this game the AI rated as Pathetic will be using you as their own key civ.

As for additional cities, I know the extra warrior is a cheap way to maintain happiness while getting the benefit of another city, but the settler needed to found it could have been a caravan, instead, needed for an SSC wonder or for trade. In my opinion, there just isn't enough time to make adding a lot of cities pay off.

I will be happy to attach many more saves from my own game after the deadline, so keep in mind which ones might be of interest.

To all using Marco Polo's,

I had some time today to try this out in a short replay, and when I pushed to build this as early as possible, it ended up giving me lead of about 4 techs over what I had attained in my original game at the time MPE was built (725 BC). I could not get any alliances, but was able to trade maps with most civs to get an earlier fix on their locations. Knowing their next research choices would lead to benefits later.

The downside of going for Marco Polo's was that I had one less city by the time it was made, and was behind my earlier pace in initiating trade. My tentative conclusion is that MPE is a viable alternative for acquiring techs earlier, but that it does not confer a decided advantage to those deciding to go with it.

Monk,

I just noticed your post, and was wrong about you building MP. If I recall correctly, you established an embassy with a diplomat and managed an alliance and some gifts by doing this. Could be I was just confusing your comments with someone else's.

I agree that 1276 may hold up pretty well, but you have proven to be very quick at picking up the essentials to playing these kinds of games.

[Bloody Monk]

Solo,

Thanks for sharing your Marco Polo test. That is my feeling as well. I wonder if spending a few diplomats on making embassies with the some of the "better" civs might be a good compromise. Better means more likely to excell at research.

Monk

[Bloody Monk]

Originally posted by SlowThinker

... 6 diplomats cost you 180 shields, MPE 200 shields, but it is instant, and so its value is much bigger.
*****************
Only one super city? Do you mean you trade with AI only? Please see point 2. below.

Seriously, now the main problem for me is
1. to time exploration/colonies with the start of Republic
2. to count how many super cities (colonies) that will produce caravans I need (with regard to the fact that there is only one science from caravans)

ST,

You could be right, for truely, embassies are very helpful. Solo has some test data that might be helpful for us to consider.
*************
I don't want to use the term super city to refer to colonies. Colonies are just helpers that happen to be offshore. Trade is to AI or colonies, where demanded; and back to the homeland and the AI from the colonies.

The point is to deliver high value commodities to offshore or AI cities that demand then. The decision to trade hinges on getting a hefty bonus (for the science kick) or a high ongoing route. Otherwise, choose food and use for Wonders or SS parts.

That's my understanding.

BTW, I will post interim saves after the deadline if you think it would be useful.

Monk

[SlowThinker]

solo,
excuse me for my stupid question, I thought it is Supreme --> white.

[Bloody Monk]

delete...bad click

[SlowThinker]

The decision to trade hinges on getting a hefty bonus (for the science kick) or a high ongoing route. Otherwise, choose food and use for Wonders or SS parts.

Why do you use food for Wonders and SS parts?

I don't want to use the term super city to refer to colonies. Colonies are just helpers that happen to be offshore.

However if you have only one super city (I mean a city with many trade arrows so that the deliver bonus is high) then its 3 routes are depleted soon and you have to wait for next swap... I thought you need more such a cities. Or did I miss something?

[Scouse Gits]

Originally posted by SlowThinker
Why do you use food for Wonders and SS parts?

There are three categories of building orders and at any level above Chieftain there is a penalty for altering build orders between groups.:

1) Military units including Freights, Diplomats and Explorers.
2) City Improvements.
3) Wonders/Spaceship parts

If you start a warrior then switch to a Temple or a wonder you lose half the shields (rounded up). Happily if you start a wonder then change to a spaceship part you don't incur a shield penalty. The best method of building the Spaceship is to build loads of freights. Instead of disbanding them for 25 shields as would be the case for Units or Improvements you receive the full value of 50 provided you start with a wonder first then change to SS bit. Sure - you must have a spare wonder around ... but if playing an early landing game without one means the AI may land before you!

So if Manhattan Project is available (trouble if it's not) start the city with this wonder. Despatch freight to "Help build wonder" then change to SS with no loss!

ST - I hope this advice is as good as the wisdom about Map Making.

-----------------------------

SG(2)

[SCG]

Originally posted by SlowThinker

Why do you use food for Wonders and SS parts?

food in itself doesn't provide the science and gold boost upon delivery. However, if one of your 3 supply commodities is blocked, but you don't have that commodity listed on the 3 trade routes, using it for wonders unblocks that suppy so you can build the commodity again. Especially useful when something with a large multiplier (gold, silk, etc) is demanded and easily deliverable.

Also, SS parts fall under the Wonder category when switching (no 50% loss of shields)

However if you have only one super city (I mean a city with many trade arrows so that the deliver bonus is high) then its 3 routes are depleted soon and you have to wait for next swap... I thought you need more such a cities. Or did I miss something?

as demonstrated in OCC, 1 super science city can eventually produce more science than is needed for a single discovery in 1 turn. Therefore, if your freight/caravan deliveries also total what is needed for a discovery, then you can easily get 2 discoveries per turn. because the SSC is going to have several extra multipliers (Ikes, Copes), it would take about 2-3 really large cities to produce the same amount for a 3rd discovery, which isn't feasible in early landings because of the time and the techs and luxuries to get them that large

[Bloody Monk]

Originally posted by SlowThinker

1)Why do you use food for Wonders and SS parts?


2)However if you have only one super city (I mean a city with many trade arrows so that the deliver bonus is high) then its 3 routes are depleted soon and you have to wait for next swap... I thought you need more such a cities. Or did I miss something?

ST,

1) Food... I'm trying to decide how to respond. Are you trolling or is it language or is it that you haven't actually played many games all the way. I'm going to assume the best and answer with very basic stuff.

We were talking about trade and deciding what commodity to send where...or, at least, I was. You do know that one choice among the commodities presented is food, right?? And you do know that when a city is building a Wonder, one of the choices you are presented with when you deliver a caravan is "build wonder,"yes. And also, you can deliver to build a wonder and then switch to spaceship (SS) parts with no penalty.

This is very basic stuff. If you aren't going to get a big payoff from delivering a commodity, choose food, and then, deliver the FOOD caravan to a wonder or SS part--->so the 50 shields aren't wasted.

I hope that helps.

2)It is a very long thread but I suggest you read Solo's pre-500ad landing thread. I think you have missed something. Also, I don't know what you mean by routes being "depleted" and "the next swap." Sorry.

Monk

[SlowThinker]

Originally posted by SG(2)
If you start a warrior then switch to a Temple or a wonder you lose half the shields (rounded up).

I am very sorry, but the loss is rounded down.
The trick with switching Wonders/Spaceship was useful. If I will ever get so far in Civ2.
Anyway the word food was pivotal in my question. Happily SCG was at hand. I hope next time you will reform.

Originally posted by SCG
However, if one of your 3 supply commodities is blocked, but you don't have that commodity listed on the 3 trade routes, using it for wonders unblocks that suppy so you can build the commodity again.

How can I build a commodity for a Wonder if it is blocked? (Blocked - do you mean it is in parenthesis in the city window? )

Monk,
'Depleted' - I mean blocked.
'Swap' - a change in commodities.
I wanted to say that I suppose you cannot build non-food caravans very often - after the 3rd caravan all supply comodities are blocked (under parenthesis) and you have to wait until commodities are changed...

[SCG]

you build a food freight and deliver it to build a wonder. that removes the parentheses and allows you to build that commodity again. This only works when a blocked commodity is not currently being traded (one of the trade routes)