Proposed New Diplo Game (USA Sat nights)

[Flatlander Fox]

As I recall...

Raz took a horrid country in one of the HOTW games and made it turn out o.k.

It can't be that bad now that you guys can't recover?

If so, I'll sub for you in a week, and THEN see what your civ looks like...

Anyway, if you throw this one away, there's still me modpack...

I am shaving the units down now, and have already adjusted the movement...

Observations of an interested observer...


I'll butt out now

[OzzyKP]

Originally posted by deity
Then you see things purely in terms of war and needing equal starts, totally missing the point of what a diplo is all about.

I don't want to play whingers.

I've been saying that many of these folk miss the point of a diplo game. You need some more vets to smooth things over and recognize that the diplo newbies are indeed newbies (no matter how great they are at straight civ). Its all about the players, thats my advice.

BTW, what the heck is a whinger?

[Dank]

Mmmm........sounds like it might of been a good thing I missed Saturdays game....but I couldn't avoid it...I will be here next Satureday though....

[OzzyKP]

And just so you know, I have included the Saturday Night diplogame in the grand list of diplogames located in the Diplogame FAQ started by CapTVK. I've also updated Tales from Gaia and HOTW2.

Epik, I want to put in the Tales from the Monday Night Diplo Front, but the first thread is missing. I have the climax thread, http://apolyton.net/forums/showthrea...threadid=1535, but the one before this is gone, as leader of that game do you have it saved somewhere I could look?

[Frank Johnson]

A rather biased view, Diety.

The only reason we dared select a random map this time is because the sting of diplo games using various world maps has gone back so far we've forgotten all the disasters on random maps.

I'm not even advocating a return to a world map, I agree it's not entirely fair. However that's not the point really....no map will ever be entirely fair that doesn't look like a stupid box for each civ. No what needs to done is to give a player a solid base of a solid starting location. Even if we took some random map and had a 3rd party put starting locations down on good starting terrain, that'd be enough for me. If you put all the civs of the same color in the same rough area, you can even be sure that civs will have some merger buffer between other civs.

Yes, a map will never be entirely fair, but its the unbalancing affects of a bad starting location that have the worst affect, and for all purposes reduce you perhaps the lowly role of kingmaker for another civ, with no chance of your own.

[OzzyKP]

My advice: quit whining (is that american for whinging?)

I agree with Deity. All everyone cares about is balance. The real world isn't balanced, diplogames arent' supposed to be balanced. HOTW3 is off to a great start, the Zulu shot straight to the top, they have 20 cities now, I've got 11, do I whine? No.

The Germans and Chinese have lush, incredibly fertile land in Europe. I have desert, desert, and more desert. Do I whine? No.

This is how fun is created in a diplogame. This is the mechanism to make things interesting. India and Russia are way behind the Zulu? Well they team up to take a bit of land to even the score. The top dog gets isolated in the world, and that makes up for it.

There are many, many ways within the context of a diplogame to even out uneven starts. In the real world does Switzerland complain they aren't as big as Russia? Do Australians complain they aren't as dashingly good looking as Americans? No, people just deal with the lots they've been given.

All civs are not created equal. Deal with it. Quit whingerging.

[Frank Johnson]

You chose the Arabs If you're looking for someone to blame go find a mirror. Most of Kuja's gains have been because of his superior game play finding huts. Plus you're taking this out of context. There's strict limitations on alliances and tech trading in this game, which would be fine........IF the game was balanced!

I'm not going to sit here and be told not to "whine" when game after game is halted whenever someone else feels like they don't like it anymore or it isn't convientiant for them anymore.
Some of the words you guys are throwing around would get you a punch in the face down here in Texas, and its over a game that you're using such words.

For me, a diplo game has always been about the clash of great empires. Russia, China, Germany, USA, etc etc........In this case I get to play as someone like greenland. No offense, but its not what civ or diplo games are about.

Do I REALLY have to go back and document every single diplo game that has failed due to poor game balance for you to understand this? Maintaining balance in the game is the ONLY, and I mean ONLY way to keep people interested in a game. Diplo games were designed specificly to maintain this balance, so "agressors" were punished, and the top dawg didn't just run around killing everyone. Only over time did they evolve into a kind of civ soap opera that some now misinterpet as the orginal intent. If the Balance is never established it can never be maintained and the diplo game has no point and is dead.

[deity]

And I thought it was just an Aussie expression!

Courtesy of Atomica:

whinge (hwĭnj, wĭnj)
intr.v. Chiefly British., whinged, whing·ing, whing·es.
To complain or protest, especially in an annoying or persistent manner.

[Dialectal alteration of Middle English whinsen, from Old English hwinsian.]

whing'er n.
whing'ing·ly adv.

I think ozzy just said that he and others DON'T just look for equality in a diplo game. I'm sure most true diplo-gamers don't.

But if war is paramount in one's mind then equal starts become MORE important.

Having said all this I wish to say that I value having MP players available more than anything else and I prefer to participate in a game where everyone is relatively happy.

I'll go with the flow on this. See what the others say but so far we have three players who are not happy - bloody whingers LOL

If we don't use a random map though the mystery will disappear unless a neutral party makes one? In which case you could get rid of huts which is another unbalancing thing. I did very well from huts in the current game so that's why I'm happy to cede a city to Raz!

If we keep playing the current game maybe the best players could be handicapped by not having alliances/tech trading but the others can? I still think it's a good rule though...

[Frank Johnson]

Yes ozzy will lecture you on non-equality, but he will still choose a starting location with a whale and 2 other specials I also think he's playing the "you can't quit, look how bad off I am" card, since he's the driving force behind HOTW3, but in all my conversations with him, it would be hard to say he doesn't have winning, or at least competiting on his mind!

Equality isn't a good of a word as competitive. You want a game to be competitive. When a game isn't competitive anymore its over!

Deity, why instantly assoicate a descent starting location with war? It affects everything from tech prdocution, to caravan production, wonders and everything else. To say "If you want fair starts you just worry about war." like you are is wrong. In fact, the better land I get the LESS likely I am to war as far I'm concearned. Weither I produce tech, armies, or caravans.....you're going to produce more of them because of your start. I might produce more snowcones than you, but thats about it. BTW premade maps can have huts.

And why are you so attached to this game? I would have hoped you fought harder for the last game, which we spent much more time on.

[deity]

How could I have fought any harder for the other one? You want all my icq histories related to that? I fought harder than anyone else to save that game - I even offerred my civ to Nappy!

The point with starts is that it's not relevant if you are playing a proper diplo and acting out a realistic scenario where imbalance does exist but diplomacy is meant to make the difference.

But if you are pre-occupied about winning and war the starts are more important - that's all I'm saying.

Of course pre-made maps can have huts but I'm saying that you can also take them out!!! With a random game you can't. I'm happy to eliminate huts if everyone thinks they are too unbalancing.

[OzzyKP]

Originally posted by Frank Johnson
Yes ozzy will lecture you on non-equality, but he will still choose a starting location with a whale and 2 other specials I also think he's playing the "you can't quit, look how bad off I am" card, since he's the driving force behind HOTW3, but in all my conversations with him, it would be hard to say he doesn't have winning, or at least competiting on his mind!

Yes, I am indeed looking to compete. Thats the point. But I was actually looking for an underdog position in this game and hoping to pull myself up by my own ingenuity and diplo-skills. I am actually a bit disappointed at this point, because I am doing better than I thought I would be. I see ahead to very good things in the future, and it doesn't feel as much fun anymore.

I'm always the guy who roots for the underdog. Just in my nature I guess. So I in fact prefer to be in a crappy position and have to work my way out of it. Within reason of course, you can certainly go too far and truly be uncompetitive. I agree with Frank entirely, you need to at least be "in the game". But I think we have a different idea of what this needs.

Hows this for a good compromise statement. (cause i don't want all this fighting out of game) Every diplo player should be prepared to be in last place, every diplo player should not get pissy, whinny, upset or moody if they are in last place, of course even the last place player should be reasonably close to the person above him and the situation must remain competitive to remain fun.

Ok, long statement. Now shake and be friends.

[Frank Johnson]

Yes, going into a game with players like this, you can't get upset that you aren't riding high in first like you should be against the AI. But we should have realized this from the start, if we ban alliances and tech trading, each civ is solely dependent on themselves for everything, and that only futher complicates whatever horrible start a player might be given. It makes balanced starting locations that much more important than it might be in a game where tech trading and alliances are allowed.

However I've found in these diplo games players are all too unwilling to make counter allainces against the top player(s). That's my main beef...you can throw all this stuff around about diplomacy balancing things out, but I always try to lean in the direction that will keep the game balanced, even if it means starting a war with a larger opponent. So if I'm not a at least a force to be considered in a game, usually no one will take up the cause of trying to maintain the game balance.

For instance, if we continued the last game I would have faced the hard choice of desiding how far to let deity go on the euros and fodder.......after all he was #1 even if by a narrow margin....

[deity]

OK, we have to start a new one, majority has told me

Sorry to those few who wanted to continue.

Will we just start again with the same settings and give everyone a few turns to accept the map? Then thereafter forever hold their peace

[deity]

Thanks to FFox!

OK, Dang asked Flatlander Fox to make a random map as per our settings and then place the civs in good equal spots.

Hydey loads it up as a map file...

WE pick the same colours as before and shut the hell up everyone, OK??

[Hydey]

Whinge and win

So if you don't start on a green river valley with 2 whales , a pheasant and a gold mine in sight , demand a restart.