Proposed New Diplo Game (USA Sat nights)

[Epik]

I suppose I am beating the proverbable dead horse here, but this is the last set of rules posted by deity before the game started (from page 2 of the thread)

Originally posted by deity

I may be in the minority but I think because of the way the civ engine works it may be best to have no "alliances" and no tech trading? But stealing and capture are OK.

To sum up my SUGGESTIONS:
ONE Wonder per civ
NO Alliances
NO Tech trading
ONLY capture one undefended city per turn pre 1000BC (per civ)
ONLY capture 3 cities per turn per civ thereafter
Ceding units OK BUT NO double moves
No City bribe
Unit bribe OK
All tricks acceptable in Rah Rules are OK - like IRB is OK, etc
All the cheats not accepted in Rah rules NOT OK - NO caraporting, etc

Deity indicated in our King Chat that he thought the limits on tech stealing were made before the game started, but I do not see any limits mentioned. I have played in several Rah Rule games and tech stealing (including "friendly" thefts) are considered acceptable. It was always up to the victum to decide whether it was an act of war.

After the first round everyone but me agreed to force a declaration of war before stealing a tech. This will make it extremely difficult to pull off a theft, since the element of surprise is gone. In my opinion the penalties have become so high that stealing a tech is no longer a viable option.

I was under the impression that this would be a Diplo game, where we would have some things that we could negotiate. I suppose I should have declined to play when I saw that alliances and tech trading would not be allowed. In my opinion, negotiation is the best part of a Diplo game. In this game we can now not even negotiate whether to go to war or not, after a tech theft.

This game has gotten too restrictive for my tastes, and I feel I must now withdraw.

If there is someone else out there that can live with these restrictions, then they are welcome to take over the Borg Collective.

[Frank Johnson]

Epik, if I remember correctly as soon as deity posted that rules set, I raised the issue of "friendly" tech stealing. I knew this was a normal part of most RAH rule games and I felt deity was overlooking that.

I know you're new to this type of game, but we have played many and are trying to explore different options available in the game. The last sat night game was on a small map, and edited rules to slow growth, and no wonders. HOTW3 has civ specific units, that change between sessions, native americans off the tech tree and alien invasion endings. In this game deity wanted to directly address a huge issue that was raised in the last game, the tech block alliance. This definately polorized the world in the last game, and arguably made it less dynamic and fluid of diplo game. I'd agree to that assesment.

I have no doubt people will be able to steal tech if its really needed. Afterall, makeo was able to use 10+ diplos to sucicide my city walls in the last game, so maybe players will just need more diplos in this one. Not a big deal.

Plus I brought it up because I felt deity was directly trying to address the tech block in this game, and anything that compromised that might make the game lose its meaning.

[deity]

Originally posted by Epik
I suppose I am beating the proverbable dead horse here, but this is the last set of rules posted by deity before the game started (from page 2 of the thread)

Deity indicated in our King Chat that he thought the limits on tech stealing were made before the game started, but I do not see any limits mentioned. I have played in several Rah Rule games and tech stealing (including "friendly" thefts) are considered acceptable. It was always up to the victum to decide whether it was an act of war.

After the first round everyone but me agreed to force a declaration of war before stealing a tech. This will make it extremely difficult to pull off a theft, since the element of surprise is gone. In my opinion the penalties have become so high that stealing a tech is no longer a viable option.

I was under the impression that this would be a Diplo game, where we would have some things that we could negotiate. I suppose I should have declined to play when I saw that alliances and tech trading would not be allowed. In my opinion, negotiation is the best part of a Diplo game. In this game we can now not even negotiate whether to go to war or not, after a tech theft.

This game has gotten too restrictive for my tastes, and I feel I must now withdraw.

If there is someone else out there that can live with these restrictions, then they are welcome to take over the Borg Collective.

OK Epik, Dangime did warn me about this:

Originally posted by Frank Johnson

Deity if you are gonna ban tech trading, might as well close the "friendly tech stealing diplo" loophole too!

and I followed up with:

Originally posted by deity

I think tech stealing is OK but players should not agree to a 'friendly' deal like that. Government restrictions would apply too.

I just thought of something else that would make war much more realistic and tricky...
You can't ask another civ to go to war on someone else to avoid revolution! Let's play it properly particularly if we have no alliances. I really want to avoid solid blocs which will make the world more realistic.

Then after the first session we more fully discussed tech stealing and voted to ban it completely. I really don't care too much, I just thought it would be more interesting without tech stealing once I saw the problem.

To keep you in the game, Epik, I'm happy to continue with tech stealing allowed and see what happens. As I see it this is your only bone of contention and not really worth quitting over. Can everyone agree on this please since it was not ratified before the game started, ie we now allow tech stealing in whatever form and let the diplomatic circumstances unfold.

It's more valuable to me that we have fine players willing to commit to a game and stay with it. One day it might never exist
I'll go online in the future and no one will be here to play proper Apolyton civ.

Our current game is an excellent game and is very evenly balanced.

So let's all stop "whinging" LOL

AND carry on, please...

[Epik]

Has the start time issue been resolved? Reading the previous posts it sounds like it may prevent others from continuing the game.

Since everyone else wanted to play without tech stealing, I think it would be best if someone replaces me in the game. I thought I could live with the restrictions on alliances and tech trading, but I have also come to the conclusion that it removes too much of the thing that made diplo games fun, which is negotiations.

What you need is another player who can accept the restrictions.

It is too bad that you have experienced problems with alliances and tech trading in the past. I guess what is needed is a group of players who will act in their tribe's self interest. This would mean that they were willing to break alliances when their ally became too strong, and they would only trade a tech when they got something of value in return. I was lucky enough to find such a group once before, so it is possible.

[Frank Johnson]

Nah epik, it only took one person to kill the last game. Because you're a conistant player (at least these 2 sessions) that gives you some clout. If you insist on this, I suppose we will accept it. Afterall we know how to play that way as well, and its unlikely to find another player who will be conistant and meet the time slot requirements.

All the time issues revolve around length of play, not being able to play. The time scheme means our sessions would be an hour shorter, if the status quo remains. I'd ask for some consessions from both hydey and makeo so this hour could be made up, I dont know how long a game that is only played an hour and a half a week will hold up.

[Hydey]

Originally posted by Frank Johnson
, I dont know how long a game that is only played an hour and a half a week will hold up.

We played over 4 hours last week at the same start time.

[Frank Johnson]

Nope. Makeo leaves at 9:30 Pm my time on the dot. The game didnt get on untill wll after 6 pm, dont remember exactly when. But the point is the game will be an hour shorter if we keep this way in the coming weeks. I just want to play at least a solid 3-4 hours.......otherwise a weekly game will last forever.

[deity]

I agree with Dang.

The most important thing to me is to keep everyone in the game.

So stay with us Epik - We won't mention it!

[Hydey]

oops sorry Frank , My mistake when the game started at 10:17 am My time and ended at 2:22 pm I thought it was more than 4 hours but perhaps I am wrong and bow to your superior interlect.
Like I said to deity I will get online as soon as I can but can not promise to be here 2 hours earlier than I was for the first session of this game.

[Frank Johnson]

Ok maybe it was my imagination. It looks close to 6:30 to 10:30 my time......I just seems we never get it going on time, and Im a junky you know, got to have my civ, so sorry for distrubing ya.

[Epik]

Well no one jumped up and volunteered to take over my tribe, and I have no other plans for tonight, so I will play at least one more round.

Also the sight of a deity begging me to stay pleased me...

[Hydey]

yes what was Deity doing on his knees in front of you

[Makeo]

i love this game

[Hydey]

I'm away for 2 weekends

I will be away for the next 2 weekends and as such will require a sub. Any one wishing to put up with this lot for a couple of sessions please let us know.

[Hydey]

any takers for the sub spot ?

Please someone sub for hydey, don't leave the Victorian people to the AI.