What do YOU want in SMAC2

[sk8ordie]

ok, if we're evolving constantly dont you think future humans would look different. play areound with that. And also I think SMAC2 should have more space stuff. like theres three different windows and one is planet and one is space and one is earth or mars or whatnot. and the space one would be like, have you ever played simant, its the yard screen. you know its got the squares that you can move to to start a new colonie. well, that same idea exept make it all 3D and spiffy. i think that'd make the game so much better. thanx.

[Blake]

quote: Originally posted by gwillybj on 04-11-2001 05:42 PM I kinda thought, after I posted it, that I missed what you meant. At risk of chewing up to my ankle and earning Dunce of the Day honors, may I assume you're hoping unit upgrading stays in SMAC2? I have never played any of the Civ series Should I, even though I am completely engrossed in SMAC? I ask because, other than SMAC, the only other games I play are categorically WAR games. [This message has been edited by gwillybj (edited April 11, 2001).]

It is safe to assume that I meant the upgrading stays in SMAC2, and I hope it is included in Civ3. While on the topic of upgrading there should probably be some restrictions on upgrading, in SMAC you are pretty free to upgrade whenever you want.
How I think it should work is:
You order a unit to upgrade, this could be done on a single unit "ctrl-U", all units "upgrade all". You can order a unit to upgrade even if it has already moved, and it can be moved after being ordered to upgrade. The actual upgrade doesn't take effect until the next turn, the unit starts the turn with the upgraded stats, and 0 movement points. The exception is units in base squares - assuming they havn't moved the upgrade is instant.

On borders - It would be nice if borders were a bit more rigid, at a minimum so the enemy can NEVER steal resources from an existing base (ie older base gets the full use of all tiles in it's radius). Also some sort of minimum distance from the HQ. But the main thing is the enemy should never be able to steal the terraforming of an established base.

[Paul Vella]

Here's a question, in my workshop I put a colony pod on a aircraft.
What will happen? Will I be able to make an airbase?

[gwillybj]

I kinda thought, after I posted it, that I missed what you meant. At risk of chewing up to my ankle and earning Dunce of the Day honors, may I assume you're hoping unit upgrading stays in SMAC2?

I have never played any of the Civ series Should I, even though I am completely engrossed in SMAC? I ask because, other than SMAC, the only other games I play are categorically WAR games.
[This message has been edited by gwillybj (edited April 11, 2001).]

[Blake]

Ofcourse I know you can do it in SMAC. However some game developers seem to believe in "if it aint broken, break it". Just play CTP2

[gwillybj]

quote: Originally posted by Blake on 04-11-2001 07:08 AM... By upgrade I mean with one click of a mouse button or key you pay $$$'s and that obsolete unit turns into an up to date one... (bonus points for an "upgrade all units of this type" ability)

Umm... It already is in SMAC
Press "U" to bring up the Unit Workshop, locate the unit-type you want to upgrade in the bar at the bottom, click it, click the Upgrade button, and, voila! All of them are upgraded! (You do have to confirm or reject the upgrade depending on if you want to spend the money. If there is not a higher unit designed, it will tell you.) The only thing missing is the giant sucking sound as the cash drains out of your coffers
If you don't have enough money to do a blanket upgrade this way, you can upgrade each individual unit, no matter where it is on the map, by pressing Ctrl+U, again confirming or rejecting the upgrade.

The first example I described has caused some lively discussions here because it lets you upgrade and move the units in the same turn, whereas with the second option you can upgrade or move, not both, in one turn.
[This message has been edited by gwillybj (edited April 11, 2001).]

[Blake]

Just gotta post this before I forget (again)...

If SMAC2 does not have the ability for all factions to upgrade obsolete units I will brutally beat someone to death with a spoon, erm, or something.

By upgrade I mean with one click of a mouse button or key you pay $$$'s and that obsolete unit turns into an up to date one.

The process of going to each base, interupting it's build schedule, inserting the new military unit, selecting the obsolete unit and disbanding it (making sure to change production and disband in the right order!!) is the most major PIA in Civ2 for me (suprise, CTP2 has no upgrade ability). And I'll get quite violent (or just rant) if a unit upgrade feature is not in SMAC2, or CIV3 for that matter. It's okay if you can only upgrade in bases, and it takes several turns to happen, just as long as it can be done. (bonus points for an "upgrade all units of this type" ability)

[Blake]

I got really bored a couple of days a go and played a game of CTP2 (once again trying to find something good about the game...)

I actually realised that a few features are good, reduce MM without making it seem like you are out of control. Also some concepts are quite good, but ruined by the lack of balance and testing. In general CTP2 is horrible, but I think the following features were done quite well.

Population: Cities grow by X people per year, rather than having a nutrient bar full up, then grow by 1. I can't see a problem with having cities grow in the CTP2 style, it is a lot more realistic after all.

City Radius: The expanding city radius, I must admit this is quite cool, and counters ICS quite well, however the horrid worker allocation (or lackof) meant that the expanding city radius frustated a bean counter such as myself. But if workers and specialists could be allocated in a sensible way, automatically and/or manually then expanding city radius would be cool.

"Overcrowding": Again this models real life, growth slows as a city becomes overcrowded, rather than hitting a hab-limit. Overcrowding rather than hablimit works well. For anyone who hasn't had the displeasure of playing CTP1 or 2 you might build an aqeduct which reduces overcrowding by 8, allowing more rapid population growth.

Drone Contol: CTP2 had happy/unhappy cities, but to be honest I could never work out what exactly the difference was. Also it had sliders for "workday" and "wages", setting a long workday made the people unhappy, but the balance was so non-existant that you could make everyone work all day for half a cent and minimum food, while being a democracy, and the people tolerate this on account of a couple of stone-age wonders. The pros of CTP2 happy system is:
Happiness penalty for distance from capital
No happiness penalty for large cities (counter for ICS)
Happiness penalty from going to war (never saw it though)
Happiness bonus for
The big con being:
Horrible balance. - basically it's not a bad system, just poorly balanced.

By removing unhappiness caused by population you remove a BIG chunk of MM, and also strike a blow against the ICS'ers. To be honest I don't enjoy the constant MM from a growing population.

Armies:
A must have, being able to group units reduces MM a lot. Also army combat is much more realistic and should also be included. There was nothing much wrong with CTP2's army system, but in a giant step backwards you couldn't have units in the same tile as your allies.

Public Works
Love it or hate it, personally moving around hoardes of formers is something I really enjoy doing. One big PIA about the CTP2 PW system is you can't build outside your territory, meaning that you can't connect two distance cities with a road, without first building another city in between. Considering that cities can grow to fill there entire borders this is rather annoying. Also you can't build bunkers in enemy territory, or roads to facilate quick movement of troops.
The pro is low MM, you don't need to bother building formers or moving them. A comprimise I may be able to live with is having a system where you say "Build a Borehole here" and your formers then gather and do it, personally I think formers should be kept, but automation should work a lot better and be customisable. So you can move formers manually (possibly grouped), put them on "auto terraform" or give terraforming tasks, but not to a specific former "Build a borehole here, build a road from A to B", and automated formers would then complete that task. And the possibilities of a global terraforming task such as "every city should have atleast one tile producing 2 nutrients, and as many forest tiles as population" or "a bunkers sensor combo should be built every 3 tiles around the border with the Mutants" In order to do that a powerfull scripting system would be required. PW is just too lacking, and too much like building facilities.

In short:
Realistic population model, expanding city radius
No unhappiness from large populations, less "discrete" unhappiness.
Armies
More powerfull former automation.

That's enough for now

[Cybergod]

quote: Originally posted by Jokka das Trevas on 04-09-2001 06:59 PM Hey, Cyberdude... I think those too overpowered... Aliens are true powerhouses by now, and you want to give'em +25% attack/defense bonus free w/ tech? Robots that can outgrow humans? You are imabalancing the game by removing each factions weaknesses. Lie. NON-human factions. Humans will continue to have their disadvantages and'll wither with the alien and robot tech bonuses to attack, growth, etc... Imbalancing techs or SP should be given only at the end of the game, as already is. It remembers me.... another thing I missed in SMAC was a decent finale video and the CITY VIEWS! I loved to see my grown-out cities landscape in Civ and Civ2! Maybe in SMAC2, hopefully... but Civ3 will come out way earlier I guess...

Erm... I always say that everything is discussable . First of all I also added a human attack/defence bonus upon discovering Secrets of the Afterlife . I'd really like to see that tech, although I think that the +25% attack/defence bonus for aliens and humans is a bit too much. Maybe +10%? Your opinion?

Also why quote my whole post?
[This message has been edited by Cybergod (edited April 10, 2001).]

[knowhow2]

Paul Vella,

Do you really have to quote Cybergods entire post?

[Paul Vella]

quote: Originally posted by Cybergod on 04-09-2001 03:13 PM New Techs and their things (I couldn't put preqs or 'leads to' since I think the whole tech tree should be redesigned): Cryogenics - DISCOVER (a tech based on cryogenics - d'uh! ) FACILITIES: Cryochamber (robots can't build this) SP: Cryosleep Paradigm (robots can't build this either) Xeno Psychology - EXPLORE (a tech based on studying alien species and their communication) Allows non-aliens to contact aliens FACILITIES: Aquafarm (same as before, all can build it) Replicator Algorythm - BUILD (a self-replicating robotic algorythm) Gives robotis factions who discover it +1 GROWTH FACILITIES: Replika Sector (only robots build this) Nano Engineering - CONQUER (a powerful military combination of Nanominiaturization and Retroviral Eng.) WEAPONS: Nano Cannon (A15) ABILITIES: Self-replicator Quantum Computing - DISCOVER (new superfast computers using quantum technology) FACILITIES: Q-Net Universal Mutagen - EXPLORE (finding a universal gene for any species that allows genetically engineered mutation, or something like that) CHASSIS: M-Drone (mutant special chassis - only mutants can build this) SP: Code of the Brood (only mutants build this) Mega Robotics - BUILD (developments in massive robot building) CHASSIS: Ultrabot Fractal Organisms - CONQUER (discovering about organisms that exist on fractal level and behave by the fractal theory) ARMOUR: Fractal Armour (D4) (+25% against infantry) Secrets of the Afterlife - DISCOVER ("Is there life after death?") Human infantry gain +25% in both attack and defence in everything SP: Spiritual World (only humans build this) Weather Control - EXPLORE (a study of how to control the wrecked weather systems - include the suggested ideas on the first page) SP: Th Weather Paradigm (same as before - all can build it) Ambition Algorythm - BUILD (discovers the true robotic mind's wishes - unfortunately, they too want to control) Robotic factions that discover this tech become more agressive SP: Ultimate Conversion (Robotic Special Victory) Will of Creation/Destruction - CONQUER (just what drove the zo'or and progenitor to do the vast galactic experiments and then try to seize control over them or otherwise destroy them) Alien infantry gain +25% in both attack and defence in everything SP: Conqueror's Philosophy (only aliens can build this) NEW THINGS: Facilities: Crychamber - +1 research and +1 talent at this base, robots can'r build it (a facility where cryosleep is studied) Replika Sector - robot special fac, +1 growth and industry at this base (a sector for self-replication) SP: Cryosleep Paradigm - -2 drones everywhere plus cryochambers at each base, robots can't build it (an unorthodox way to control drones by letting them go to sleep and wake the up when necessary ) Code of the Brood - free brood pit at each base and +1 police, only mutants can build it (a mutant similar project to Ascentic Virtues) Spiritual World - free paradise garden at each base, eliminates negative effects of Democratic and Eudaimonic, only humans can build it (a deep study of millenia-old human belief in 'another plane' and possible spiritual contact) Ultimate Conversion - robotic victory (involves releasing billions of nano probes onto Earth and on planets where enemy faction colonies are to comstruct a massive robotic empire and using everything that stands in its way as a raw material) Conqueror's Philosophy - gives the faction +25% attack to non-psi attacks, eliminates negative effects of Police State, Planned and Thought Control (if not previously by Cloning Vats), only aliens can build it (a new alien virtue that supports the belief of the species superiority over all) Weapons: Nano Cannon - attack of 15, gets +10% against projectile shields (weapon mainly uses nano-probes to penetrate enemy armour) Armour: Fractal Armour - defence of 4, +25% defence against infantry (defence consists of hard and rigid fractal organisms, attacker needs to be fast to penetrate this), there should be further development of this armour in later game, like the pulse or resonance armour in SMAX Abilities: Self-Replicator - unit repairs quickly and may do so to the full (uses nanotech to repair the unit both biologically and technically) Chassis (when taken over cannot be retro-engineered, or should it? to be discused): M-Drone - mutant special, infantry that can go through shellf water aswell, 3 movement, uses forests and fungus as roads (a genetically engineered mutant warrior) Ultrabot - robot special, air unit, 6 movement (or should it be 5?), doesn't need refuel, can capture bases, built in self replicator and dissoactive wave I think I should rest my brain now...

Now all this sounds cool! I agree with that SMAC2 should have tons and tons of new technologies because with Alien Crossfire you only get a few new ones which make very little difference, if any.

I have some techs as well but I'm still finalising everything:
One idea I want to expand upon is Chemical Emotions.
The belief that the brain is a real object. Hence, everything inside the brain is real too, then emotions are in the brain so emotions must be real things, i.e chemicals called 'hormones'? Then with this discovery, factions could create Confusion Bombs and drop them on cities that disable troops or probes teams as the whole city gets confused and may even fall to the other faction without even realising it! Hey, factions may even build Emotional weapons that convince troops from another faction to fight with them against another faction! this is all psychology stuff for my psychological faction I'm working on.
I like the idea of a mutant faction too. My Genetic faction could be mixed with that. Lets say that a human faction, on the second mission to Chiron believes the only way to surive on the planet is to mix his/her genes with the organisms on planet (I know it sounds like the transendence at the end of the game) but something goes wrong, or may right, and the human faction becomes mutated and is now regarded non-human, non-alien, non-robotic a mutant side!

If everyone came up with new techs and put them here then we'd have a new tech tree to mix into the existing tech tree in no time!

[Jokka das Trevas]

Hey, Cyberdude... I think those too overpowered...

Aliens are true powerhouses by now, and you want to give'em +25% attack/defense bonus free w/ tech? Robots that can outgrow humans?

You are imabalancing the game by removing each factions weaknesses. Lie. NON-human factions. Humans will continue to have their disadvantages and'll wither with the alien and robot tech bonuses to attack, growth, etc...

Imbalancing techs or SP should be given only at the end of the game, as already is.

It remembers me.... another thing I missed in SMAC was a decent finale video and the CITY VIEWS!

I loved to see my grown-out cities landscape in Civ and Civ2! Maybe in SMAC2, hopefully... but Civ3 will come out way earlier I guess...

------------------
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Long live THE HIVE!

[Cybergod]

Paul I think we should incorporate our ideas together but I would really like to see mutant factions in the game, because I've just developed some new things, see if you guys like it!


New Techs and their things (I couldn't put preqs or 'leads to' since I think the whole tech tree should be redesigned):

Cryogenics - DISCOVER
(a tech based on cryogenics - d'uh! )
FACILITIES: Cryochamber (robots can't build this)
SP: Cryosleep Paradigm (robots can't build this either)


Xeno Psychology - EXPLORE
(a tech based on studying alien species and their communication)
Allows non-aliens to contact aliens
FACILITIES: Aquafarm (same as before, all can build it)


Replicator Algorythm - BUILD
(a self-replicating robotic algorythm)
Gives robotis factions who discover it +1 GROWTH
FACILITIES: Replika Sector (only robots build this)


Nano Engineering - CONQUER
(a powerful military combination of Nanominiaturization and Retroviral Eng.)
WEAPONS: Nano Cannon (A15)
ABILITIES: Self-replicator

Quantum Computing - DISCOVER
(new superfast computers using quantum technology)
FACILITIES: Q-Net


Universal Mutagen - EXPLORE
(finding a universal gene for any species that allows genetically engineered mutation, or something like that)
CHASSIS: M-Drone (mutant special chassis - only mutants can build this)
SP: Code of the Brood (only mutants build this)


Mega Robotics - BUILD
(developments in massive robot building)
CHASSIS: Ultrabot


Fractal Organisms - CONQUER
(discovering about organisms that exist on fractal level and behave by the fractal theory)
ARMOUR: Fractal Armour (D4) (+25% against infantry)


Secrets of the Afterlife - DISCOVER
("Is there life after death?")
Human infantry gain +25% in both attack and defence in everything
SP: Spiritual World (only humans build this)


Weather Control - EXPLORE
(a study of how to control the wrecked weather systems - include the suggested ideas on the first page)
SP: Th Weather Paradigm (same as before - all can build it)


Ambition Algorythm - BUILD
(discovers the true robotic mind's wishes - unfortunately, they too want to control)
Robotic factions that discover this tech become more agressive
SP: Ultimate Conversion (Robotic Special Victory)


Will of Creation/Destruction - CONQUER
(just what drove the zo'or and progenitor to do the vast galactic experiments and then try to seize control over them or otherwise destroy them)
Alien infantry gain +25% in both attack and defence in everything
SP: Conqueror's Philosophy (only aliens can build this)


NEW THINGS:


Facilities:
Crychamber - +1 research and +1 talent at this base, robots can'r build it (a facility where cryosleep is studied)

Replika Sector - robot special fac, +1 growth and industry at this base (a sector for self-replication)


SP:
Cryosleep Paradigm - -2 drones everywhere plus cryochambers at each base, robots can't build it (an unorthodox way to control drones by letting them go to sleep and wake the up when necessary )

Code of the Brood - free brood pit at each base and +1 police, only mutants can build it (a mutant similar project to Ascentic Virtues)

Spiritual World - free paradise garden at each base, eliminates negative effects of Democratic and Eudaimonic, only humans can build it (a deep study of millenia-old human belief in 'another plane' and possible spiritual contact)

Ultimate Conversion - robotic victory (involves releasing billions of nano probes onto Earth and on planets where enemy faction colonies are to comstruct a massive robotic empire and using everything that stands in its way as a raw material)

Conqueror's Philosophy - gives the faction +25% attack to non-psi attacks, eliminates negative effects of Police State, Planned and Thought Control (if not previously by Cloning Vats), only aliens can build it (a new alien virtue that supports the belief of the species superiority over all)


Weapons:

Nano Cannon - attack of 15, gets +10% against projectile shields (weapon mainly uses nano-probes to penetrate enemy armour)


Armour:

Fractal Armour - defence of 4, +25% defence against infantry (defence consists of hard and rigid fractal organisms, attacker needs to be fast to penetrate this), there should be further development of this armour in later game, like the pulse or resonance armour in SMAX


Abilities:

Self-Replicator - unit repairs quickly and may do so to the full (uses nanotech to repair the unit both biologically and technically)


Chassis (when taken over cannot be retro-engineered, or should it? to be discused):

M-Drone - mutant special, infantry that can go through shellf water aswell, 3 movement, uses forests and fungus as roads (a genetically engineered mutant warrior)

Ultrabot - robot special, air unit, 6 movement (or should it be 5?), doesn't need refuel, can capture bases, built in self replicator and dissoactive wave


I think I should rest my brain now...
*1 hour later *
Ah, much better ! What do you guys think (WAY... above)?????

------------------
"I hate this storm. The others all pretend they're not afraid but I know better. They're as scared as I am, but they won't admit it. They look at me and smile and make brave faces and they can see how frightened I am. The wind howls out there and they all pretend they don't hear it. And when I turn my back to them, when they think I can't see them, they laugh at me. I can hear them laughing at me even over the noise of the wind."

Extract from
"Return to Mars"
by Ben Bova

[Cybergod]

quote: Originally posted by gwillybj on 04-08-2001 11:19 PM This is probably a Small Thing, but I would very much like to see the Weapon and Armor Modes enabled. The way it is now, it makes no difference at all which weapon you use against which armor -- if the armor has a higher rating, it will (most likely) defeat your weapon (depending on the modifying factors like morale, location, terrain, etc.). But, with the Modes (Projectile, Energy, Binary) enabled, you will have to be more careful what units you send out. You will also have to maintain more of a mixed army (combined arms), instead of just upgrading everything each time a higher-valued Weapon or Armor becomes available.

I agree with you. This thing about the modes is only mentioned in the manual but it doesn't seem to have much (if any) effect in the game. I calculated the power ratings in a battle before and it was the same no matter what shield/weapon I used.

[gwillybj]

This is probably a Small Thing, but I would very much like to see the Weapon and Armor Modes enabled.
The way it is now, it makes no difference at all which weapon you use against which armor -- if the armor has a higher rating, it will (most likely) defeat your weapon (depending on the modifying factors like morale, location, terrain, etc.).
But, with the Modes (Projectile, Energy, Binary) enabled, you will have to be more careful what units you send out. You will also have to maintain more of a mixed army (combined arms), instead of just upgrading everything each time a higher-valued Weapon or Armor becomes available.

Edit: Re Cybergod's reply which follows.
Yes, the modes mean absolutely nothing in the current version. It was abandoned before the final release. I wonder if maybe the AI couldn't figure out how to take advantage of them?
The thing to remember here is that there are various bonuses applied, but still no guarantee that opposite weapon/armor battles will come out one way all the time. All the other factors would, of course, also apply (morale, location, terrain, etc.). I would like to have to think a little more about which units I send out into a fight, instead of just sallying forth with my BFG's.
[This message has been edited by gwillybj (edited April 09, 2001).]