What do YOU want in SMAC2

[johndmuller]

quote: Originally posted by Blake on 04-27-2001 12:40 AM One thing I would love to see in SMAC2 (and Civ3!!) is immigration between bases, so people move from overpopulated cities into frontier cities. If a large base feels threatened by it's proxmitity to an enemy border droves of people could start leaving it and moving to "safer" cities. Immigration could even go between your faction and other factions, if your population is unhappy it moves! Of course then that unhappy population could make the other faction unhappy and poorer too.

I like the idea of Immigration too.

CIV & SMAC model conquest and colonization, but don't do real well in more subtle concepts like assimilation and cultural imperialism, not to mention the effects of religion, either spiritual or economic. Civ3 is supposed to have some elements of culture, as in conquered cities taking a while before they are really your citizens or some such, but I don't think they address as much as we could imagine.

The idea of cities or individual pop units leaving and/or joining factions sounds great; there could be some quantifiable effects from a propaganda war. Perhaps the Psych/Happiness levels could be juiced up to provide a value for comparison between nearby cities where "nearby" could be a function of the available Communications techs, whatever they were.

Probe/Diplomat units could be allowed to attempt to recruit a pop unit to switch factions where the strength of the unit and the relative Psyche/Happiness indicies were compared for resolution (maybe credits involved as well).

Emigrants could be the result of bad conditions at home either economic or military (if city conquered by another faction), and or immigration could be fostered by good conditions at the receiving faction, probe actions or just chance, maybe even ficticious good conditions via propaganda.

A "Wonder" - the Statue of Liberty could provide a bias towards acquiring and keeping pop units w/r other factions.

I think that "Guest Workers" are a viable possibility also. A guest worker would be a pop unit "loaned" between cities of different factions they would produce more and/or cost less to support than local workers, but they would have a negative effect on the Psych/Happiness of the host faction (cheap foreign labor taking our jobs). They would provide credits to the faction of origin (sending money home) as well as having a beneficial effect on the home country's Psych/Happiness (relieving social pressure). Presumably (but maybe not necessarily) this would be between a rich/advanced faction and a poor/low-tech faction. If desired, they could be represented by new icon(s) in the Drone/Worker/Specialist vein.

They could be created by negotiation between factions, by covert activity (probe/diplomat "recruiters") or automatically, by the game, between two bases whose relative technology/ecomomics/happiness-psych/whatever were conducive according to some algorithm.

Perhaps the guest workers would become citizens in a certain period of time and fully join the new faction and leave the original one.

I think that these would be really cool and add a convincing level of realism.

Something similar to guest workers could possibly be done with military units (mercenaries/soldiers of fortune), but they would have to be handled differently as the issues of support and benefit are handled differently. I think that there is some discussion of this in a Civ3 suggestions thread somewhere.

[Vultur]

quote: Originally posted by Blake on 04-27-2001 12:40 AM One thing I would love to see in SMAC2 (and Civ3!!) is immigration between bases, so people move from overpopulated cities into frontier cities. If a large base feels threatened by it's proxmitity to an enemy border droves of people could start leaving it and moving to "safer" cities. Immigration could even go between your faction and other factions, if your population is unhappy it moves! Ofcourse then that unhappy population could make the other faction unhappy and poorer too. You should be able to control this with city orders, like to allow no immigrants from faction X, or order citywide evacuations. Ofcourse the result would depend on the population, it would be easier to order an evacuation if nearby cities are not overcrowded. Also a high probe rating and plentiful garrisons would help to prevent immigration.

I've had a similar idea: when you lose population for hunger the game swow a window saying:"hungry workers leave the factories"
my idea is to materialize a CP in an adiacent square. The CP will be "colorless" and will move to an other faction's territory. The "reciving" faction can receive,reject,capture (use them as slaves?) or ...exterminate (truly two bad things...) the CP.An other good idea is the "City evacuation" but how to evacuate a city of more 2 citizen in few turn?(CP take time to be built...)
Maybe it will be enjoiable put an option that force your citizen to "escape" from a city. (like burned-earth strategy, you leave nothing to conquer to your enemy). Maybe the CP "created" with this methods should be different, for example with you can't use them to build new bases (they are escaped...) but you can only add to existing bases (creating refugees problemes). Maybe if you force a population to evacuate some of them will escape from your hands. (the percentage of lost CP could be based on ex-base's people happiness, so if is a conquered city very few of them will join to you)

[Blake]

SP's are just a hangover from Civ2 I feel, and are not really nessecary for SMAC2, instead there should be special facilities, which act simialler but more than one can be built under certain circumstances. These should have some possible negative effects, and also be allowed to be shut down. Some SP's do make sense, a second Merchant Exchange or Empath Guild would seem redundant, but if the first was destroyed.... For other SP's like the WP and space elevator every faction should be allowed one, the longlivity vaccine is borderline - surely the first faction could create a monopoly, but another faction may like to create it's own version to serve only it's own people and deprive the first LV of business...

One thing I would love to see in SMAC2 (and Civ3!!) is immigration between bases, so people move from overpopulated cities into frontier cities. If a large base feels threatened by it's proxmitity to an enemy border droves of people could start leaving it and moving to "safer" cities.

Immigration could even go between your faction and other factions, if your population is unhappy it moves! Ofcourse then that unhappy population could make the other faction unhappy and poorer too.

You should be able to control this with city orders, like to allow no immigrants from faction X, or order citywide evacuations. Ofcourse the result would depend on the population, it would be easier to order an evacuation if nearby cities are not overcrowded. Also a high probe rating and plentiful garrisons would help to prevent immigration.

The PTS SP should increase and regulate immigration, so you can quickly shuttle population around.

The growth model should have overcrowding, so unless your faction SE enforces birth control population can grow without limit, outstriping food and housing and resulting in a large, unhappy, unproductive population. On the other hand growth could be slowed by birth control, you have less population to throw around, but smaller family sizes and other factors would result in a richer, better educated population, from which you would get more technological advances and income (but less UN votes).

Earthly human factions would tend to have large, relativly unproductive populations which grow (and starve) quickly, while centurai human factions would have smaller populations, where people have a much higher standard of living and are more productive.

[gwillybj]

I would like to propose a minor adjustment in the unit graphics (references are to SMAC v4.0):

For unarmored infantry units, keep the current graphic of the person holding the weapon.

For armored infantry units, use a modification of the graphic used for the Former -- with its tracks and hull, but replace the terraforming tools with the weapon graphics, and the hull properly colored according to the armor type.

One way to do this would be so only certain types of armor use the "AFV/APC" graphic:
Synthmetal (blue)
Plasma Steel (red)
Silksteel (green)
Neutronium (brown)
Antimatter (dark grey)
(5 types).

The rest remain the "soldier" graphic:
No Armor (just the weapon with its usual graphic)
Photon Wall (yellow "wings" on the backpack)
Probability Sheath (gotta love that semi-transparent light grey raincoat )
Stasis Generator (red "wings" on the backpack)
Psi Defense (purple "wings" with brown antennae on the backpack)
(also 5 types).
Edit: darn formatting again .
[This message has been edited by gwillybj (edited April 26, 2001).]

[knowhow2]

quote: Originally posted by Vultur on 04-25-2001 03:34 PM I've got a couple of idea for SMAC2: Movies for all types of victory (Not only Trascend & Progenitor) For Conquest Victory: Immagine a lot of soldiers aligned, behind them speeders and hovertanks and over squadroons of Neddlejets that fly to a big monumentum (like that you see when you descover a Secrect tech) and the a voice (maybe Santiago's) that read the text for the Conquest Victory. For Economy Victory: Immagine the Planet seen from space, with tons of bases' lights, and one after one the lights turn off except a region and Morgan's voice that read the text for Economic Victory. For Diplomatic Victory: Immagne a big assembly, like a parliament and the votation for Planet Governor, with the voice of Lal that read Diplomacy Victory's text. I've think that other type of victory could be enjoyable. For example: Satellite Victory Someone has proposed as satellite facility a sort of "death beam", my idea is that you built, for example, 10 "death beam" for each non-pacted faction, you can activate the "Satellite Peace Platform" and win the game. Any faction can do it. Planet Buster Victory If you build enough Planet Busters (20-30, maybe more) you can try to "Threaten the Planetary Council",(Council option, after the discovery of Will to Power ) that can vote for you for not to be busted off; obviusly they can risk and, joyn the forces, combat till the death (their...or yours!) Any faction (also Progenitor) can do it. Probe Victory-for Sinder's lovers- New Probe Action "Steal Secrect Codes", performed at enemy's HQ: Allow ANY probe action against the victim faction that act as -2 PROBE for 10 turns, disregarding for SE,facilities, SPs, etc. If you steal all enemys' codes in 10 turns you can "Introduce Networks' Virus" and taking off the Planet, pushing the other factions on the Stone Era!!!>[This message has been edited by Vultur (edited April 25, 2001).]

This is really ideas! Not to much but definitely a improvemnet. Maybe this idea could be introduced in a expansion set prior to the sequal?

[Vultur]

I've got a couple of idea for SMAC2:
Movies for all types of victory (Not only Trascend & Progenitor)
For Conquest Victory:
Immagine a lot of soldiers aligned, behind them speeders and hovertanks
and over squadroons of Neddlejets that fly to a big monumentum (like that you see when you descover a Secrect tech) and the a voice (maybe Santiago's) that read the text for the Conquest Victory.
For Economy Victory:
Immagine the Planet seen from space, with tons of bases' lights,
and one after one the lights turn off except a region and Morgan's voice that read the text for Economic Victory.
For Diplomatic Victory:
Immagne a big assembly, like a parliament and the votation for Planet Governor, with the voice of Lal that read Diplomacy Victory's text.

I've think that other type of victory could be enjoyable.
For example:
Satellite Victory
Someone has proposed as satellite facility a sort of "death beam", my idea is that you built, for example, 10 "death beam" for each non-pacted faction, you can activate the "Satellite Peace Platform" and win the game.
Any faction can do it.
Planet Buster Victory
If you build enough Planet Busters (20-30, maybe more) you can try to "Threaten the Planetary Council",(Council option, after the discovery of Will to Power ) that can vote for you for not to be busted off; obviusly they can risk and, joyn the forces, combat till the death (their...or yours!)
Any faction (also Progenitor) can do it.
Probe Victory-for Sinder's lovers-
New Probe Action "Steal Secrect Codes", performed at enemy's HQ:
Allow ANY probe action against the victim faction that act as -2 PROBE for 10 turns, disregarding for SE,facilities, SPs, etc.
If you steal all enemys' codes in 10 turns you can "Introduce Networks' Virus" and taking off the Planet, pushing the other factions on the Stone Era!!!

I have also an idea for robot factions:
Square don't produce nutrients (Robots don't need them)
Robot's "population" need 2 energy/turn
Robot bases don't growth (you can expand only building Colony Pod)
Robot's CP don't subtract "population" from the base"
Children's Creche,Cloning Vats can't be built
The Nano Factory SP work as Cloning Vats for robot factons.
The CPs' cost is determined by ASSEMBLY values on social engeneering (ASSEMBLY=GROWTH)
A robot faction has not Talent/Drones, Pop Boom, Golden Age etc.
Instead of drones the robot faction as "Upkeep problems"
Base begin to produce "out of order" population; the production is not stopped as in the case of drone riots, but this "robot drone" extract only the half of resources rounded down (do you remember polluted square in Civ2?). If "robot drones" are more then normal population the base stop to work (too many upkeep's problems) and only high UPKEEP values on social engeneering (UPKEEP=POLICE) or have Upkeepers(=Doctors, Empaths, Trascendent) or relocate energy to the Maintenance(=Psych). Obviusly the equivalent of Rec Commons, Holo Theaters etc. can be built to avoid "out of order" population. Talents don't exist so Garden of Eden, HGP etc. can't be built. Also Punishment Sphere & Nerve Stapling are impossible.
A robot faction has not positive/negative MORAL modifiers.
They can upgrade their moral only building Command Center etc.
They can also build units with "High Moral" named for them "War Algorithm"
They can build nerve and soporific gas units, but against them don't work.(Robots don't breath)
Instead enemy's faction can use Comm Jammer ability (+100% vs robots, they take this as an Atrocity)
An other "robot atrocity" is "Introduce Polymorphic Network Virus" that works as Gene Warefare.
MORALE in the SE is replace by BELLIC (Industry) that influence units' costs (act as INDUSTRY)
They can't capture or bree or own Mindworms, they haven't PLANET bonus/penalties in PSI combat against native planet life that "infiltrate through every crevice and chew through anything softer than plasmasteel."
(Can robots feel?an androids does dream eletric sheeps?) Other factions can't attack/defend using PSI units (simply don't work!), but robots can do it (with mechanical aid). PLANET rating influence the Maintenance costs of the facilities (recicling abilities).
For the part of conquering the bases there is the same "relocation" for the robots (as in SMACX, for the Progenitors)

I think a robot faction is not overpowered (you decide when a base growth, but population needs energy, humans can't use gas or nerve but Comm Jammer is enogh to stop them, the bases don't revolt, but there aren't talent to balance the balance the drone's effect etc.)
Maybe must be add robot's name for the SE choises (robot fundamentalism? "in Gear we trust?"), but I think SE with the adjustment seen above are quite good.

What are your ideas?

[This message has been edited by Vultur (edited April 25, 2001).]

[sharpshooter]

Before I start suggesting new features, I'd like to know if there's ever going to be a SMAC2? Has Firaxis said anything on the question? Has anyone asked? And as you all probably know, Brian Reynolds who designed SMAC has left Firaxis.

[Cybergod]

quote: Originally posted by johndmuller on 04-23-2001 03:19 PM How about some occasional really BAD unexpected SP Side Effects - the result of mad scientists, accidents in the lab, bad luck, whatever. Examples: --Space Elevator Collapses during Ribbon Cutting Ceremony -- A one plot wide ring around Planet is devastated by the impact of the falling cable; terraforming, units, bases all gone; must negotiate heavy compensation with all affected factions and/or engage in vendetta. --Planetary Datalink Glitch -- Programming error causes All of YOUR Tech to be published on the Web (permanent or one-time only). --Cloning Vats are Big Disappointment -- The extra population produced by the Vats are ALL DRONES. --Weather Paradigm Backfires -- Incompetent scientists create environmentsl disaster at base where it is being researched; equivalent to earthquake/meteor/nuke - minus 2 Planet adjustment. -- Have fun making up more.

I love those ideas! Well, all except the Cloning Vat side effect.

BTW, this is the 101th post to this topic!!!!!

[Aredhran]

NO BUGS

'nuff said.

[Sikander]

The Hermann Goerring Project -

A glitch in the HGP accidently infuses all citizens with a propensity toward obesity and delusions of grandeur. Every population point now requires 3 nuts to support, and diplomatic relations suffer a penalty.


Synthetic Virtues -

Every one seems real nice, but behind your back, watch out! Hab limits are relaxed by two, but those two are automatically drones that look like talents! Watch the fun as the drone riots begin!


The Planetary Gridlock System -

Government engineers radically underestimate the growth of motor traffic when designing roads. The result is miles of gridlocked traffic, well beyond the quadruple bypass, blocking every major artery into the city. All travel along a road is at double the normal cost of the terrain in the square. Every fourth worker becomes a drone.


The Planetary Energy Reneg -

Areas of your empire which support Green economics over Free Market suffer from rolling blackouts as they refuse to build sufficient energy production facilities. Your Energy Minister refuses to build solar panels or tidal harnesses and instead tells them to wait until the market forces a correction, or more energy can be crawled in from the north. Every fourth base produces -1 energy per square. The effect lasts until the discovery of Sympathetic Fossile Fuels.


The Maginot Defense Force -

Rather than impose an expensive and politically unpopular militia system upon your citizens, your defense minister Maginot hits upon an idea of extensive fortification. Every square surrounding each of your bases is converted to a bunker (using commandeered formers of course), regardless of the effect upon any terraforming. Brushing aside the complaints from the Chief of staff regarding the insufficient numbers of troops to hold the bunkers, and the possibility that the enemy might occupy them to invest bases, Maginot presses on.


The Hunter - Sucker Algorithm -

While it appears that you are immune to probe actions, in fact what has happened is that every faction has infiltrated your counter-espionage agency. -4 probe rating regardless of other settings.


[This message has been edited by Sikander (edited April 24, 2001).]
[This message has been edited by Sikander (edited April 24, 2001).]

[johndmuller]

quote: Originally posted by Earwicker on 04-23-2001 10:33 AM 2) How about more SP's whose effect is dependent upon SE (like Longevity Vaccine)? Or SP's that, in addition to their positive effects, come at a price -- by creating negative effects to certain SE choices. Sort of the anti-Network Backbone or Cloning Vats. That might mitigate the unbalancing effect of certain SP's

How about some occasional really BAD unexpected SP Side Effects - the result of mad scientists, accidents in the lab, bad luck, whatever.

Examples:
--Space Elevator Collapses during Ribbon Cutting Ceremony -- A one plot wide ring around Planet is devastated by the impact of the falling cable; terraforming, units, bases all gone; must negotiate heavy compensation with all affected factions and/or engage in vendetta.
--Planetary Datalink Glitch -- Programming error causes All of YOUR Tech to be published on the Web (permanent or one-time only).
--Cloning Vats are Big Disappointment -- The extra population produced by the Vats are ALL DRONES.
--Weather Paradigm Backfires -- Incompetent scientists create environmentsl disaster at base where it is being researched; equivalent to earthquake/meteor/nuke - minus 2 Planet adjustment.
-- Have fun making up more.

[Earwicker]

quote: Originally posted by sk8ordie on 04-12-2001 03:38 PM ok, if we're evolving constantly dont you think future humans would look different. play areound with that.

Similar thought: As bases grow, and the factions grow older, the base appearance should change. It's weird that bases with large population just look like proportionally larger versions of themselves at a younger age. Yes, there currently are minor variations, but it makes the later game a little boring. This is particularly true for factions like Angels, Hive, Pirates, whose bases are plain to begin with.

Other stuff:
1) Different factions should research specific techs more quickly -- maybe even research others less quickly. For instance, Gaians get 10% (or so) Labs bonus when researching "Centauri" techs, -10% while researching "Industrial" techs. Spartans +10% for "Doctrine" techs. Or assign different tech values for different research areas to impede the tendency for the game to become a wargame -- like increasing the costs of "conquer" techs.

2) How about more SP's whose effect is dependent upon SE (like Longevity Vaccine)? Or SP's that, in addition to their positive effects, come at a price -- by creating negative effects to certain SE choices. Sort of the anti-Network Backbone or Cloning Vats. That might mitigate the unbalancing effect of certain SP's

[Sikander]

quote: Originally posted by RGE on 04-18-2001 12:25 PM One thing I would like to see in regards to combat is a different take on weapon and armor. If the weapon has lower power than armor, the attacker shouldn't be able to hurt the defender. If the weapon is as high, or higher than armor, the battle should be resolved by comparing weapon vs weapon. Because this seems to be the way everything is heading in modern warfare. Armor is good for protecting against shrapnel and small arms, but it's not used for actual defense when attacked by similar machines as the one you're using. Although, maybe accuracy and speed is more important once it's been established that you can't afford to let your armor take the hit, just as long as your own weapon is able to penetrate your opponent's armor. RGE

I don't think that a weak weapon should be completely useless against strong armor. For instance, a .50 caliber machine gun of WWI era design can shred a BMP (Soviet Armored Fighting Vehicle) designed 50 years later, even though the machine gun was not designed for that role. It takes a long time for armor tech to completely neutralize weapon tech. This is in large part due to the need for armor to cover a large area, while the projectiles / energy of an attackers weapon can concentrate on weak spots, or create them through multiple hits. This doesn't mean that there is no advantage to armor. In the example above it would be completely conceivable that the BMP could aquire the .50 cal machine gun and destroy it with cannon fire before the .50 cal could do enough damage to destroy the BMP. It might make the BMP think twice before engaging several machine guns at once however.

My problem with the Civ system of combat is it's reliance upon units of a single type. It is tactical combat on a strategic map at a strategic pace (1 year per turn!) . A much more realistic model would be the grouping of different types of weapons into combined arms armies (or divisions etc.) Add a leader pool where leaders of varying ability are kept. You could assign a leader to each of your armies (and certain factions and SE settings would excel in leadership or not) and the system becomes much more palatable. There is nothing I hate more than the Civ scenario where a Phalanx produced by a city of 10,000 blocks the movement of even a Panzer Korps produced by a city of 1,000,000 over a huge area until it is squashed by the Panzer Korps. Zones of Control should be based upon the ability of an army to project power into adjacent areas. It should be a product of mobility vs the distance involved and firepower of the reacting unit vs the fire power of the force which moves into the potential zone of influence.

Military movement and combat should be carried out simultaneously, based upon the orders given by the human (the high command) or AI, and the results should be dependent upon enemy moves as well as the quality of the respective leaders, and the difficulty of the desired movement. This would not only speed multiplayer by eliminating the wait for each player to make their moves sequentially, but also by reducing the number of moving entities involved. It should also help the AI, as the human cannot take as much advantage of the unrealistic total tactical control he now enjoys. Moving all of your units in whatever order you see fit is extremely powerful, and well beyond the ability of the AI to take advantage of. Instead both human and computer will issue simpler intstructions, and both must anticipate and react to the chaos and imperfection of the battlefield.

[Cybergod]

Alinestra Covelia, I've been wondering about the poles ever since I landed next to them for the first time! I think that would be great but the shape of the "world map" would need to be changed to something else. Maybe eliptic?

I would also like different SE models. How do you know if Planned, FM or Green economies would survive up to 2100.? Or if there still would be some fundamentalists about? I also don't seem to see in the world that countries are 100% in one thing and 0% in other. Also the period of switching from one to the other should be longer and dependable from how big is your empire. I mean, yes the capital would make the switch quickly enouth but what about those cities on the edge? What if some of your cities are more influenced by your neighbours ways of living and decide to switch (or it happens vice versa)? I'd like to see "philosophies" of different faction, a bit like in "Stars! Supernova Genesis" (from the screenshots of it though, I don't particulary like it), where you have:
* Alternate Reality (energy-based life forms that only inhabit starbases, orbiting and mining the local star until it's depleted, then caravanning to the next empty system)
* Bio-Engineer (name says it all, masters of biotech)
* Synthetic (machines, robots & manufacture...)
* "Standard" (pick and mix of the three above)

Also there were some interesting philosophies in the above game so maybe go to http://crisium.com/sn/snprt.htm ?

Tech trees: do they have to be the same for everyone? Maybe one faction's personality is mainly 'synthetic' weapons (made with machines, and uses robots a lot) and another uses loads of bio-tech. For those with biotech, the sinthetic armament would be all in one technology possibly called Sinthetic Machinery (like Bio-Machinery for the synthetic faction).

Also I've been thinking about our storyline problem. Do we really have to more from Planet straight away? Can we wait a little later because there is so much we can exploit by staying on Planet. Maybe 'borrow' some bits from other Civ games? Maybe a tech called "Secrets of the Wormholes"? I think that my colonies idea should be used for colonisation of other planets in the Alpha Centauri system (if I remember one of them, it as Eurypton - Mercurian planet) or moons of Planet or even asteroids (asteroid mining, remember the Living Refinery video?). Maybe leave the "Return to Earth" scenario for later or maybe make it AS a scenario in the end game.

I've never played Deadlock and so don't know what it's like, so can some one link to the screenshots page of it? Please?

That is all from me for now folks .

[Alinestra Covelia]

This is something I was wondering about, as I examined my world map. It probably has more resonance with Civ3 than with SMAC2, but it's an interesting idea all the same.

Call To Power tried to innovate with the poles, allowing you the option to make your world doughnut shaped. (ie if you walked off the top row you would appear on the bottom row) Whilst this owes more of a debt to pseudocartography than astronomical feasibility, it still highlights a distinct lack of purpose to the Civ2 and SMAC poles.

In any Civ2 Earth scenario, in order for the USSR to nuke America (or vice versa) the superpower in question must send a nuclear weapon across the Pacific or Atlantic. Frequently the range involved is too great for a single flight. In reality, the nations would most likely consider delivering the nuclear weapon across the Arctic circle. Most flights from London to Beijing or New York to Beijing do cross the Arctic circle, since the curve of the earth favors that more than an Atlantic/Pacific flight.

So - how about the possibility of moving a unit on the top row to any other square on that top row? This would reflect the fact that the poles are on the same latitude lines, and that moving from meridian to meridian is simpler at the poles.