The Council of War

[sentry33]

Good luck Snoddasmannen

[Googlie]

Originally posted by Snoddasmannen
What's that super amph missile rover doing down in 2Nuts?

It set out last turn for Minas Tirith, where the new Mercury can pick it up

And oh, wish me luck again today, I have a second interview with Opera That's one of the reasons I haven't been to active lately.

Best of luck in the second interview

[Maniac]

Copied from the MY 2166 planning thread, so we can discuss this longterm strategy discussion here, and keep the planning thread exclusively for the stuff happening this year:

***

Having just looked at the turn (who will play it btw?), I'd even suggest to completely call off the framing operation.

Why?
The Gaians are in a truce with Yang... I guess the Morganites (or Angels??) asked the Hive to call off their vendetta with the Gaian Union. The Hive has received three new techs this year, so it's clear what they got in return.

This means the AFAIK two goals of framing Morgan would no longer work:

1> Trying to keep DAP out of Weasel hands. Even if we'd manage to frame Morgan, they could still get it from via the Gaians.
2> Let Yang do some dirty work for us by harrassing both the Gaians and Morganites.

Besides, look at the base build list of the Hive. All hab complexes and other builder stuff, for the first time in a couple decades. Do we really want to risk disturb Yang again and throw him back into war mode, this time with a 50% risk he's solely focused on us??


Oh yeah, if the Axis of Weasels does indeed get DAP, I'd return to my previous opinion: an invasion of Terrapeso would be suicide! I'd suggest to call a peace conference with the goal of really trying to sign a peace with the Weasels (or at least the Corporation; it's not like the Gaians can harm us).

Who knows we could still succeed in conquering the Corporation, but there would be little left of them after we're finished with them: they've got only seven size 3 three bases. You have to count two pops are lost to capture a base, so that means we'd get seven extra workers out of the whole operation.

This might still make sense if we were living in the situation of ten years back: The Corporation and Sparta the only great powers, with the Angels and Gaians only as spectators. Then defeating the Corporation could have meant winning the game.

But these last ten years the Angels have been popbooming. They have the same population as the Corporation, and their power bar has grown almost as high as the Morganites as well.

If the Corporation and we keep fighting, the Angels might very well run away with the game since they can keep focusing on builder production.

Therefore I advocate peace, so we can popboom ourselves.

[Googlie]

Originally posted by Maniac
... the turn (who will play it btw?),

Why don't you go ahead since it's a weekend - I can take over when the turn falls midweek, as I gather that's not so convenient for you

I'd even suggest to completely call off the framing operation.

I agree - maybe we send that longstrider down to join the Gaian Expeditionary Force

Besides, look at the base build list of the Hive. All hab complexes and other builder stuff, for the first time in a couple decades. Do we really want to risk disturb Yang again and throw him back into war mode, this time with a 50% risk he's solely focused on us??

Good point - and with the Angels pop-booming, and the Gaians likely not far behind, we need to focus ourselves on consolidation and pop growth.

This game is far from over, Tassadar's opinions notwithstanding

Oh yeah, if the Axis of Weasels does indeed get DAP, I'd return to my previous opinion: an invasion of Terrapeso would be suicide! I'd suggest to call a peace conference with the goal of really trying to sign a peace with the Weasels (or at least the Corporation; it's not like the Gaians can harm us).

I agree. Let's crank up the diplomacy to full volume

If the Corporation and we keep fighting, the Angels might very well run away with the game since they can keep focusing on builder production.

Therefore I advocate peace, so we can popboom ourselves.

I agree. We did strike a major blow in getting rid of the PTS - that maybe cost Morgan the win.

One option left to us is in warring with the PK's, and enslaving them. We need to discuss this. (and as a corollary, do we change to POLICE and try to pact with Yang? - that'd prolly provoke the PK's to declare vendetta on us of their own volition!!)

Alternatively - build creches, change to Dem and Planned, then produce colony pods like crazy as we grow (and maybe gift every third one to the Uni to get them growing too - every lab point they generate is like a super labpoint for us)

We can win by transcendence, with Zak's help

[Kassiopeia]

I agree. Let's crank up the diplomacy to full volume

/me lets out a loud "Uh oh"

You can't just establish peace on the turn of a switch. This is going to require a lot of work, and even then it's probably not going to succeed. We have been on war footing for the past few years in such an intensity, especially with the PTS raid, I find it HIGHLY unlikely we'll be able to manage a peace. We'd have to make it really look like it'll be worth their while, which will involve craploads of groveling and gifting.

In other words, we need to make them want peace. That can't work out if we want it first. Feigning wanting peace is almost as good, but not quite.

Especially since we just now already declared another war on the Gaians! Sorting this out will not be easy, and I am loathe to state this again, not too likely to happen. Not now when the others are gaining an upperhand with the recent turns of events.

[sentry33]

How about we propose peace while our troops are posed to strike another major blow to them? (Are we capable of making such blow? And what it would be - perhaps obliterating important bases?)

What I mean is:
- if they choose peace, we will show good will by withdrawing troops,
- if they refuse, they will suffer.

They can of course be cheating, feigning peace.. but we have infiltration on their build orders, so we are not blind. We can include military build limits in our peace diplomacy.

[Snoddasmannen]

It's unfortunate that the Axis of Weasels appears to be defending itself very well politically. We won't be able to hurt them much with air raids once they get SAM-units. A couple of SAM-rovers in their coastal bases could thwart our entire war effort.

So now we are preparing to go builder? I don't know, it sounds like the beginning of the end to me, but the Junta usually knows what it's doing

I don't think a peace with Morgania is any good though. Better to keep them on their toes.

[Modo44]

Well, IF indeed we can not invade Morgan big time, perhaps we need to consider a different approach after all. BUT, that would mean we need some more prime real estate, to make up for our faction's bad builder capabilities.

If that is the case, I propose we take out Yang, claiming the Monsoon Jungle for Sparta. Sure, Lal is the easier target, but his land is far and not as great. With our current build up, we should be able to concentrate and swipe the floor with any AI n no time.

[Kassiopeia]

Hmm, yeah, taking out Yang might be an idea.

But I agree with Snoddasmannen, I don't like this general shift in direction. While we both know you Googlie and Maniac are good strategists, are you really sure we have a shot at victory if we start to muck about like a headless chicken? "Builder, no, momentum, wait, builder, or maybe momentum, I know, hybrid!, okay, I guess builder".

[Modo44]

Hehe, nobody says we need to stop with Yang. You see, after he is dealt with (eradicated or forced to submission), we will have a land path to all other human-controlled factions. And we should be able to conquer Yang with what we already have. This means that going semi-builder while attacking the Hive should be possible. This would be in full accordance with a continued momentum strategy, while making our economy stonger at the same time. Plus, it has the good side of showing that we want to be friends with the other humans. A "Look, we turn our armies away from you to get rid of this great threat to humanity." kind of speach would be great to follow this. The only problem is, we have this Truce, breaking which will definately kill our relations with the other AIs.

Thoughts?

[Maniac]

Originally posted by sentry33
How about we propose peace while our troops are posed to strike another major blow to them? (Are we capable of making such blow? And what it would be - perhaps obliterating important bases?)

I checked it a few days ago, and by MY 2169 we could have the Tiger's Claw filled with a probe team and three combat units in Vander Eudaimonics. Nothing more though.

We could of course exaggerate, and eg say: If you don't agree to a treaty by MY 2169, we will invade at Vander Eudaimonics and Morgan Mussels (if the friendly approach fails of course ).

They can of course be cheating, feigning peace.. but we have infiltration on their build orders, so we are not blind. We can include military build limits in our peace diplomacy.

Eg they can build as many SAM aircraft as they want, but no offensive needlejets (or only a limited amount to take on Yang if necessary).

Originally posted by Snoddasmannen
So now we are preparing to go builder? I don't know, it sounds like the beginning of the end to me, but the Junta usually knows what it's doing

Originally posted by Modo44
Well, IF indeed we can not invade Morgan big time, perhaps we need to consider a different approach after all. BUT, that would mean we need some more prime real estate, to make up for our faction's bad builder capabilities.

While of course more real estate is always handy (especially the Monsoon Jungle), we don't need it for a succesful builder approach. True, we have a general builder penalty of bad Industry SE. However that doesn't mean the Spartans are completely unsuited for any kind of builder tactic: they can popboom. In fact, after getting Intellectual Integrity, I think they are the faction you can popboom with most easily and cheapest, with the exception of the Peacekeepers.

Due to the Spartan +1 Police, four workers can be controlled by two police units only. Then you only need a rec commons, and you're already at size 7, the hab complex limit (presuming the seventh worker is made a specialist).
Other factions can only quell two drones by police, meaning they have to use more expensive methods to get to size 7, such as psych spending, holo theatres, research hospitals, crawling in nutrients...

For that reason, I can rightly claim that in this phase of the game, the Spartans are the best builder of all human factions. All we need to do is build some formers, creches, tree farms and then switch to democratic.

Originally posted by Kassiopeia
But I agree with Snoddasmannen, I don't like this general shift in direction. While we both know you Googlie and Maniac are good strategists, are you really sure we have a shot at victory if we start to muck about like a headless chicken? "Builder, no, momentum, wait, builder, or maybe momentum, I know, hybrid!, okay, I guess builder".

AFAIK our strategy has always been rather momentum. So if we changed now, it would be the first time. Besides, personally I'm not suggesting we change to builder for the rest of the game. Just a period long enough to get most of our bases up to size seven, and then we can evaluate. Imagine: some 20 bases, times seven population...

Personally I think it would be the beginning of the end if we continued on our current strategy no matter what, without taking into account the changed circumstances. Sure, we have been succesful in containing the Corporation: their economy has hardly grown these last fifteen years, allowing us to catch up. But we have not been so succesful that we could take on all of Planet already. Our economy needs to grow before we can build and support the military needed to do that. The Spartans are flexible faction. Let's make use of that and change to builder for a while!

(Besides, as Modo says, there are sufficient targets so that our existing military doesn't need to rust. )

[sentry33]

Preparing for popboom does not have to mean that we cannot take over Yang meanwhile. We have enough of army for that purpose - if we make peace with Morgan and Gaia

If this happens we can grow both horizontally (conquest) and vertically (popboom), and I think its what Maniac and Googlie intended

[sentry33]

Heh, late post.. Modo and Maniac clarified it first

[Kassiopeia]

Okay. I wanted to make sure, again, that we know what we're going into. Like with the war against the Gaians. Because it's always the poor guys down in the diplomatic corps who end up doing all the cleaning up afterwards.

[Kassiopeia]

You see, I have very little actual info on the way the game is actually going for us, so I need to get the information on the state of things out of you. That means I need to bicker and harass you every time you are going to make a large decision, so that I know the relevant facts. I can't engage in an argument over whether a strategy is valid, however, because I do not have the knowledge base (on the game or SMAC strat in general) to carry out such a debate. In other words, I'm not really here to make counterarguments or discuss, I'm merely questioning your decisions so that you'll give them a second or third thought.

I'm also slightly worried at the amount of effort I'm facing. Playing a pacifistic Spartan vis-a-vis diplomacy won't be easy. I guess we need to kick Snoddasmannen out of the position of Chief of Gaian Affairs too