The idea is not quantity, but quality. We can hardly afford a fleet of those air trannies, but that would not be the aim. What they would give us is an element of surprise. No more, but no less either.
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I think I've figured out what it would take to guard against all 2-movement probe teams stationed in nearby bases with aircraft during the Morgan invasion. The tiles marked with an "A" are tiles where aircraft would have to be stationed after we capture VE. Tiles marked with a "B" are tiles where aircraft would have to be stationed after we capture Morgan Vulcanology. (Note: after capturing Morgan Vulcanology, the "A" tiles would no longer apply). Tiles marked with a "C" are tiles that would have to be guarded with aircraft after taking Scorpio Ski Resort. (Note: some of the "C" tiles are the same as the "B" tiles). Tiles marked with a "D" are tiles that would have to be guarded by aircraft after taking Impaler Polymers. (Note: once Impaler Polymers is taken, the "B" and "C" tiles no longer apply). This is all assuming that we follow the invasion in the order specified below. This also assumes that we make sure to comb through the countryside and the fungus looking for probe teams outside of bases during all of this. This could be easily done with any spare movement points that an aircraft would have before heading on its mission.
This seems very feasible to me. Of course, they could do things like update the road network before we arrive, which would change all of this.
(And just to clarify, regular, non-SAM probe teams cannot probe non-stacked air units, right?) - Edit: Cool, thanks!Last edited by Zeiter; March 5, 2005, 16:19.Civ IV is digital crack. If you are a college student in the middle of the semester, don't touch it with a 10-foot pole. I'm serious.
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Well, the air trannie would be immune to 'Gators, IoD's and arty shelling, and in the 3 turns it would take a unit to reach the coast at either 48:14 or 49:21 the trannie would be there and back
But I'm wrong on the range and cargo - with fusion, it has a 5 range but still only 1 cargo (and quantum just gives a range of 6, with Sing giving 7, but still just carrying one)
So maybe it's more of a novelty item than a useful contributor - although after Neural Grafting and Matter Compression we could give it nanocells for an extra 2 mps
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Originally posted by Zeiter
(And just to clarify, regular, non-SAM probe teams cannot probe non-stacked air units, right?)
Serious readjustment of the unit flag string is needed in the alphax.txt to allow for probe ability for aircraft - Darsnan and I have done some for specific CMN challenges- but ground units (probes) cannot interact with aircraft (choppers are a different kettle of fish as they finish their turn on the ground)
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With this previous diagram in mind, is it possible that we may not need any probe teams for our invasion, if we have enough B-4's to obstruct the passage of Morganite units? Looking at this diagram, I think we could accomplish this invasion with only a few land units. A team of maybe one elite 6-1-2, 1 impact infantryman (one of those guys sitting around at MT), 1 hoplite infantryman, and maybe 1 other unit of choice (crypteia, hoplite, skanky, whatever), + a whole bunch of aircraft, I think that right there could finish Morgan.
Edit: As for where we could get these forces, we have the elite 6-1-2, which can board the MT transport as it sails past the crater coast. We can let one of the 4-1-1 impact infantrymen board the transport at MT. We could shuffle some hoplites and crypteias around to Sector Craterwest, and use the hoplite and crypteia stationed there now for the invasion. Eh? Shall we set sail from MT with a Mercury class cruiser in 2163, and mark year 2166 as the year of the final operation to crush Morgan?Last edited by Zeiter; March 5, 2005, 15:55.Civ IV is digital crack. If you are a college student in the middle of the semester, don't touch it with a 10-foot pole. I'm serious.
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Certainly if we had enough cheap mass-produced aircraft to just put up a continuous wall as we advance thru his territory we'd succeed. If we don't care about sanctions, we could even just nerve staple the bases as we go, leaving them relatively undefended until they grow their own Hoplite (or if we got the HGP, even that wouldn't be necessary)
But with that many aircraft we could just denude their bases of everything and leave them absolutely defenceless, probes et al
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Your maps are a bit out of date Zeiter, I've attached a more recent screenie.
I also considered the possibility of not including any probe teams, but to tell you the truth I'd really really prefer at least on guy in there. If we slip up, and they manage to mind control a base - that could mean us losing our entire air force
But that said, yeah 14 or so noodles should be enough to finish Morgan
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Edit: Ah, thanks for the updated map, Snoddasmannen! :b I've now updated my diagram above.
Originally posted by Googlie
Certainly if we had enough cheap mass-produced aircraft to just put up a continuous wall as we advance thru his territory we'd succeed. If we don't care about sanctions, we could even just nerve staple the bases as we go, leaving them relatively undefended until they grow their own Hoplite (or if we got the HGP, even that wouldn't be necessary)
If we stopped for a while after taking Morgan Vulcanology, we'd need only 6 aircraft for obstruction duty, and the rest could go wherever they wanted and be busy wrecking havoc on Morgania.
Also, I'd like to point out that if, for instance, we had progressed to Scorpio's Ski Resort, and Morgan Robotics didn't have any garrisons or probe teams, and it wasn't sceduled to produce any that next turn, then we wouldn't have to have an air unit obstructing that particular passage between those two cities. So my above diagram is a "worst case scenario."
in the 3 turns it would take a unit to reach the coast at either 48:14 or 49:21 the trannie would be there and back
BTW, in one of my alpha.txt mods, I've given chopper transports a cargo capacity of 3. In that case it really can be useful to have a chopper transport which which to evacuate damaged units from remote areas and such. Also in that mod I've given infantry chassis transports a cargo capacity of 3, and they are DA BOMB!Last edited by Zeiter; March 5, 2005, 16:24.Civ IV is digital crack. If you are a college student in the middle of the semester, don't touch it with a 10-foot pole. I'm serious.
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Well, looks like we are close to another invasion plan. As long as we can start it before Morgan has many planes, I think they will get PWNed big time.
As to the power of air trannies, I think they can still be useful. In practical terms, thy look costly and not very important, except in a few specific situations (moving Formers, for example). But this design has great propaganda potential. Just imagine 4-8 air trannies with crack Spartan troops, accompanied by noodles to knock off defenders - and they are going your way. How about an air raid from now-Hive-soon-Spartan bases against Gaia? How about an air raid from Lal's possessions into Angel area? This is far-fetched, of course, but a possibility nonetheless. One that we might want to hint in the next Phalanx, just to make people jumpy.Seriously. Kung freaking fu.
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Heh, I do see how an air trannie might be very useful in certain circumstances. :b (And I like the sound of that Gaian air raid idea. Just a little tap on the shoulder to remind them of the consequences of falling out of favor with the Spartan War Machine. (Someone actually used that phrase in the ACDG forum the other day. It seems we are getting quite a repuation. ) I suppose we could build one of those air trannies sometime in the future, although we need to assess our priorities very carefully at this point.
Heh, I also noticed that Morgan Vulcanology is producing a missle squad. Well, I'd hate to break it to them, but anything without the SAM ability is rapidly becoming obsolete.
Edit: Also, can anyone tell if that tile SW of Morgan Vulcanology, with the sensor on it, is rolling or rocky? Hopefully it's rocky. If not, then add another notch to the "B" and "C" category. In that case, we'd be better off stopping at Vander Eudaimonics for a while and crippling Morgan first.
Double Edit: We can also destroy key roads with aircrafta bombing and with land forces as we go, which would do much to decrease the number of aircraft needer for obstruction duty.
Triple Edit: Now that I think about it, we should probably take along at least 1 crypteia to garrison in Vander Eudaimonics. I have a feeling that Morgan could have a gator or longstrider or two hanging around in those waters there.Last edited by Zeiter; March 5, 2005, 17:24.Civ IV is digital crack. If you are a college student in the middle of the semester, don't touch it with a 10-foot pole. I'm serious.
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My short-term strategy opinion:
-- divert only necessary but minimal forces to take the 2 Hive bases and conclude a truce ASAP.
-- at the same time, launch full power against Morgan until eradication.
Now, some personal reflexions (that I'd like you not only to accept or refute but discuss. It'll provide me with useful hinsight from hardened PBEM-ists).
-- As soon as our air assault on Morgania has begun and we have secured a no-probe zone around our troops, change from Fundamentalism to Police State (40 credits). It will help our poor research (every 91 years!!! ), help the drone problem by enhancing Police and liberate 2 minerals a base with the +2 Support (essential for a faction with such big armed forces). With planes killing everything Morgan and Navy-Aeronavale patrolling the sea in application of the Modo Doctrine, we won't be threatened by enemy probes for a while. It could be more difficult to probe others but I think Angels and Gaians are already ready to 'welcome' our probes anyway.
Add to this that changing to Police State will help negociating with Yang while Fundamentalism don't really help us with Lal.
-- We should keep money to upgrade the bases garrisons to Police Hoplites when we get IntInt. It'll liberate workers.
-- A total assault against Morgan will alienate us Angels and Gaians (if not already). They could share techs between them 3 and Lal, and even Yang ( who often, in single player, is the first to get jets) and make our life a living Hell. And then, they'll coordinate actions against us. That's why the action in Morgania should be swift and deadly as I think it'll lead us in a World War. Crush Morgan before he even can build jets or else...
-- You seem optimistic the game is almost won but, having studied turn 2061 in detail, I'm scared! That's probably because I'm a builder at heart and not a momentumer. Add to this I never built a crawler before I saw you use them here (now, I use them to speed SP but I still don't really understand how they works otherwise. I put them on automatic. When a crawler has 5 minerals on a base screen, does he add these 5 each tour or when he gets back? )
Whatever, I'm scared! We've got Air Power, others will get it soon. And the industrial capacity seems stretched too thin. Someone said a Sea Colony Pod would be too expensive. That's a direct result: many bases but little infrastructure. From now on, units, SP and facilities are becoming more and more expensive and, if they all coordinate against us, we won't be able to follow after our first victories (bigger and best army doesn't lead to victory if caught in a long struggle: WWII, WWI, Secession War,...)
All our current production is military units (which will add to our industrial burden) and military infrastructure (maintenance cost ). In fact, except in captured bases and a few recreation commons in Sparta, we have almost none infrastructure. The crawlers are supplying bases with additional minerals but we need them for SP ( and a few are coming: CDF, the two from MMI, Neural Amplifier, even the Empath Guild is still possible...). And what if they get destroyed or mind-controlled?. And think that we now want to build around 15 new units for D-Day Morgania. It absorbs the whole of our industrial power while we already have 2 bases at 0 minerals and 4 bases at stagnant growth (I already spoke about research, and launching wave after wave of probes to keep at pace will keep us in vendetta).
I therefore propose:
- Arcadia University (a good base with the Merchant Exchange. Let's use it!): Recycling Tanks (3 turns if we change the worker from 2-1-1 to mine 0-4-1), then Tree Farm (or Energy Bank if we fail capturing PEG). We could sure use those extra credits.
- Fort Superiority, our best base: It is in Hunger! A Tree Farm would solve that problem, get extra credits and boost us to pop 7 (with the minerals from forests for additional workers). A killer for every big thing (Planet Buster or SP).
- Sparta Command and Sector Cratersouth are in No Growth-No minerals situation. I know you use them as logistic bases but it's like sleeping money. With recycling tanks, they could at least s-l-o-w-l-y grow and produce.
- Vladivostok and Olympus: No growth, same conclusion. Getting IntINt soon, we shouldn't be afraid of drones. Even, it's better to have specialists that we'll change to workers than to not having.
- I think that, beginning at the end of current production, we should put 1/3 of our bases in infrastructure enhancement, the others sorting out the units for D-Day M. Once we have all we want for invasion, let's make it 2/3 and the other bases building patrol forces for Angelic and Gaian borders. The first 1/3 would be those 6 bases I already spoke about. It would be a rolling operation: 6 bases build Recycling Tanks, then 6 others while the first 6 (according to world situation) switch back to military production or continue into a second facility. Maximal priority is Recycling Tanks (0 mantenance, and +1 in everything). We can avoid building Energy Bank since we'll conquer soon the PEG. Recreation commons won't be necessary soon if we upgrade to Police Hoplites. Tree Farm are very good (Hey, pop growth, +psych, +50% energy, how can it be better?). Children creches won't be that necessary: tree farms and planned economy give us growth and we have the better morale. They are useful but can wait. We have the better units so research facilities are not top priority yet.
-- With all that said, a self-appointement proposition: Since I have no official title, I apply to the Junta to be named Spartan Secretary of State in charge of infrastructure!From hell's heart I stab at thee; for hate's sake I spit my last breath at thee. Ye damned whale!
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Vishniac: a good, thoughtful post. I'll start the discussion and let others chip in :
Originally posted by vishniac
My short-term strategy opinion:
-- divert only necessary but minimal forces to take the 2 Hive bases and conclude a truce ASAP.
-- at the same time, launch full power against Morgan until eradication.
So I like eradicating Morgan before turning our full military might against the Hive
-- As soon as our air assault on Morgania has begun and we have secured a no-probe zone around our troops, change from Fundamentalism to Police State (40 credits). It will help our poor research (every 91 years!!! ),
If we changed our allocations to 40/10/50, we'd reduce our turns-to-tech to 29. If we changed to democratic it'd be 18, but we'd lose a couple of units that we'd no longer be able to support (without rec commons)
We'd get it to 8 if we changed to Dem and FM, but only with rec commons, police units and possibly the captured HGP as well
and help the drone problem by enhancing Police and liberate 2 minerals a base with the +2 Support (essential for a faction with such big armed forces).
The problem bases are: AU, FB (in 2 turns), FL (next), FS, GH, Ironholm, SC2, SC4, so we already have (by happenstance) 6 scouts who have "signed up" as Policemen
It costs 10 ec's to upgrade to police scouts, 40 to a synthmetal armored police scout
but I think Angels and Gaians are already ready to 'welcome' our probes anyway.
Add to this that changing to Police State will help negociating with Yang
while Fundamentalism don't really help us with Lal.
We should keep money to upgrade the bases garrisons to Police Hoplites when we get IntInt. It'll liberate workers.
A total assault against Morgan will alienate us Angels and Gaians (if not already). They could share techs between them 3 and Lal, and even Yang ( who often, in single player, is the first to get jets) and make our life a living Hell. And then, they'll coordinate actions against us. That's why the action in Morgania should be swift and deadly as I think it'll lead us in a World War. Crush Morgan before he even can build jets or else...
You seem optimistic the game is almost won but, having studied turn 2061 in detail, I'm scared!
That's probably because I'm a builder at heart and not a momentumer.
Add to this I never built a crawler before I saw you use them here (now, I use them to speed SP but I still don't really understand how they works otherwise. I put them on automatic. When a crawler has 5 minerals on a base screen, does he add these 5 each tour or when he gets back? )
Whatever, I'm scared! We've got Air Power, others will get it soon.
And the industrial capacity seems stretched too thin. Someone said a Sea Colony Pod would be too expensive. That's a direct result: many bases but little infrastructure. From now on, units, SP and facilities are becoming more and more expensive and, if they all coordinate against us, we won't be able to follow after our first victories (bigger and best army doesn't lead to victory if caught in a long struggle: WWII, WWI, Secession War,...)
All our current production is military units (which will add to our industrial burden) and military infrastructure (maintenance cost ). In fact, except in captured bases and a few recreation commons in Sparta, we have almost none infrastructure.
The crawlers are supplying bases with additional minerals but we need them for SP ( and a few are coming: CDF, the two from MMI, Neural Amplifier, even the Empath Guild is still possible...).
The Air Academy and the Empath Guild have been disabled (deemed too powerful in PBEMs), but we sure would like the Cyborg Factory - in fact, that's our next priority after the CDF. The NA is good, especially if we end up in a war with the Gaian wormy army, but we'll be producing elites (or commandoes becoming Elite via passing thru a monolith) so it's not quite so essential as it might be for another faction. But obviously we'll snag it if we can
And what if they get destroyed or mind-controlled?.
(I'll post this then deal in a second post with the base-by base suggestions. Good thought-provoking piece, though, vishniac. I've certainly spent an hour this morning with this thread open and the 2161 turn open!!)Last edited by Googlie; March 6, 2005, 11:57.
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As soon as our air assault on Morgania has begun and we have secured a no-probe zone around our troops, change from Fundamentalism to Police State (40 credits). It will help our poor research (every 91 years!!! ), help the drone problem by enhancing Police and liberate 2 minerals a base with the +2 Support (essential for a faction with such big armed forces).
Now, if you want to focus on infrastructure, I think that police state would benefit us far more than demo (except for when we briefly pop-boom). Both the support and the police bonuses will free up minerals and workers. But fundy is also proving to be very workable. Now that we are so close to getting int int and police units, part of the rationale for switching to PS has become obsolete. Our efficiency would also take a huge hit, and our relations with Lal would deteriorate. Thus, I wonder if we shouldn't just stay with fundy, for the near future at least.
Momentum games are always kind of precarious because time is not on your side. But, in reality, our faction is in a much better position than the factions in most momentum games. Most momentum factions do not have the tech lead. Most do not have the highest population. Clearly, we are in a race against time as far as gaining the upper hand in this game. But we are also poised on the brink of making some huge advances due to our investment in momentum strategies. The question is: how well can we execute?
I think our two biggest threats right now are:
1. The possibility of the Morganites stealing Doc:Air or infiltrating.
2. The possibility that the Data Angels will betray us and give Morgan the green light to build the CDF ahead of us.
Now that I think about it, though, the latter threat is not so grevious. It is looking like we will use only minimal land forces in our upcoming Morgan invasion. Perimeter defenses do not guard against air attacks, so I think we could still triumph over Morgan without the CDF. Although then there would be the threat that the Morganites would self-destruct the CDF and deprive us of it.
Right now I am of the school of thought that we should strike against Morgan as soon as possible, and if that means with a smaller force, then so be it. As I see it, once we have the PEG and HGP secured, Morgan is toast. Therefore I don't think it is necessary that we build up for an invasion of the entire continent. We only need to prepare for a campaign to take the four cities that I diagrammed above. At that point we will have surpassed Morgan as far as our capabilities as a builder (and as a momentumer). The capture of those 4 cities will be the irrevocable tipping point. If, at that point, Morgan still does not surrender, we will be in a position to bring in reinforcements at our leisure and bleed their faction dry.
Edit: looking at my diagram, it looks like that "BC" tile due west of Morgan Vulcanology could possibly be moved one tile SW, and better defend against probe actions. It depends on the terrain, so I'm not sure.Last edited by Zeiter; March 6, 2005, 12:50.Civ IV is digital crack. If you are a college student in the middle of the semester, don't touch it with a 10-foot pole. I'm serious.
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I too see Morgan as the biggest threat, and the only real one. Their economy would be our death, if allowed to continue. Once they go, we should do pretty well. The simple thing is, we already have a forceful military, so we should be using it.
Still, I like the idea of sensibly adding infrstructure even while at war. The economy will break down at some point, if not helped. We should be adding upkeep capability, even if at a slow rate.
What are our current economy settings, and what are the options? Any chances to go Green for a while, to start grabbing Worms (read: cash) quickly?
Upgrading to Police units is a must.
Upgrading to Synthmetal would be good too, but I doubt we will have cash to do both quickly.Seriously. Kung freaking fu.
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To continue ………..
And think that we now want to build around 15 new units for D-Day Morgania. It absorbs the whole of our industrial power while we already have 2 bases at 0 minerals and 4 bases at stagnant growth (I already spoke about research, and launching wave after wave of probes to keep at pace will keep us in vendetta).
I therefore propose:
- Arcadia University (a good base with the Merchant Exchange. Let's use it!): Recycling Tanks (3 turns if we change the worker from 2-1-1 to mine 0-4-1), then Tree Farm (or Energy Bank if we fail capturing PEG). We could sure use those extra credits.
Fort Superiority, our best base: It is in Hunger! A Tree Farm would solve that problem, get extra credits and boost us to pop 7 (with the minerals from forests for additional workers). A killer for every big thing (Planet Buster or SP).
But next turn we plan on an Aerospace Center there, (using that stranded crawler to assist in the build) then another crawler to solve the food problem (it'll crawl a 2 nut tile) then FS will churn out Elite Impact Noodles - 1 every turn is the plan
Sparta Command and Sector Cratersouth are in No Growth-No minerals situation. I know you use them as logistic bases but it's like sleeping money. With recycling tanks, they could at least s-l-o-w-l-y grow and produce.
Vladivostok and Olympus: No growth, same conclusion. Getting IntINt soon, we shouldn't be afraid of drones. Even, it's better to have specialists that we'll change to workers than to not having.
I think that, beginning at the end of current production, we should put 1/3 of our bases in infrastructure enhancement, the others sorting out the units for D-Day M. Once we have all we want for invasion, let's make it 2/3 and the other bases building patrol forces for Angelic and Gaian borders. The first 1/3 would be those 6 bases I already spoke about. It would be a rolling operation: 6 bases build Recycling Tanks, then 6 others while the first 6 (according to world situation) switch back to military production or continue into a second facility. Maximal priority is Recycling Tanks (0 maintenance, and +1 in everything).
See what I mean? There are just too many competing interests, which is why I say if we can complete a structure in 1 turn, I’d go for it, otherwise consider carefully the opportunity costs – what are we not building in order to build that infrastructure, and will the lack of that unit come back to haunt us at a future date?
We can avoid building Energy Bank since we'll conquer soon the PEG.
Recreation commons won't be necessary soon if we upgrade to Police Hoplites. Tree Farm are very good (Hey, pop growth, +psych, +50% energy, how can it be better?)
Children crèches won't be that necessary: tree farms and planned economy give us growth and we have the better morale. They are useful but can wait.
We have the better units so research facilities are not top priority yet
While this is true, it wouldn’t harm, if we could spare it, to build a Research Hospital at Fort Soup (in addition to the afore suggested Holotheater). Random events are activated in this game, and I’d hate for us to lose anything at FS due to the Prometheus Virus (Fort Soup’s pop would drop from 6 to 3, AU’s from 4 to 2, FL’s from 2 to 1, Ironholm’s from 3 to 2 , Tegea Harbour from 2 to 1 and Argos would be wiped out – that’s 9 of our 49 pops, just under 20% of our total population. That’d be devastating.
With all that said, a self-appointment proposition: Since I have no official title, I apply to the Junta to be named Spartan Secretary of State in charge of infrastructure!
Just kidding. I have no problem with a voice in the Junta advocating infrastructure improvements – it’ll help balance the hawks
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