The Council of War

[sentry33]

Since we are discussing concerns, I will share some I have:

1. Revealing our airforce too early

Small scale raid on morgan with 1-2 noodles would do more harm than good imo - pushing gaians, angels and morgan into very close alliance against us too early (I think they already work together on small scale - but that would escalate the cooperation to the dangerous level)

2. Getting probed

Infiltration would be quite a disaster (as in #1, but even worse!). Loss of tech could mean them getting Doc Air fast. Some of these B4's really should patrol our borders.

During the invasion - if they manage to steal back one of our bases, they will get some of our air units and ability to produce more.

Even worse - they can trade one of these units to other faction (for example - for base on other continent, a base for refugees) and execute delaying tactic while others prepare to bring war on us.

During the invasion we should keep looking at the sea, the fungus tiles, and never forget that probes can slip easily through the zones of control.

[vishniac]

You sure don't disappoint, guys!

Early on we said that we were not going to compete for transcendence via a builder/research path - that our strengths were momentum and conquest . We've gone that route with the finest navy on Chiron, and now the finest airforce to back up our elite land forces ...

We do have a mid-term plan for a population boom, that would entail creches in each size 3 base, and if we don't snag the HGP, then Rec Commons or maybe Tree Farms or Research Hospitals in the larger bases to cope with the population boom.

A while back we had a thorough discussion as to how we were going to handle research. I advocated a strategy where we would sacrifice research for military and/or infrastructural development. I reasoned that we could get all of the research that we needed through probe operations, especially on the AI factions like Yang. And that's exactly what we've done.

In my post, I forgot one question.
Did you do what you did until now:
- because it's what works best in PBEM-multiplayer?
- because you decided to do it as it's Sparta's roleplay and forces?
- because it was the best course of action at its time?
Well, I have my answer now. It's a well-chosen strategy which you followed.

About Air Power:

Lal will have it in 10 years, so even if probed, it'll be 11 or 12 before we see another faction's jets in the sky above Chiron

Sometimes, I don't catch all the acronyms. I thought we stole Air Power from Lal but then I went back to the thread and we got it from AN ALIEN ARTEFACT! OK, now I understand. Nobody will have it soon. I thought anybody could steal it too... It explains the extreme confidence.

So I like eradicating Morgan before turning our full military might against the Hive

My idea was more to make truce with Yang to let him turn his hordes against the Gaians (...while we finish Morgan and turn against, let's see,... another human player)

I have no problem with a voice in the Junta advocating infrastructure improvements – it’ll help balance the hawks

Don't call me a dove either! It's just that I think improving infrastructure will allow us to build better units faster and in a greater number. Now, I admit it's perhaps not THE priority now (now that I know we are safe for at least 12 turns ) but we should think about it.

And I support Sentry33. Patrolling the borders!

[Snoddasmannen]

Awesome discussion guys

Like many of you have said, the attack on Morgan is priority one right now. I would like to echo the concerns of sentry33. The only way we can fail the attack on Morgania is by hostile probe action. Their missile infantry and plasma sentinels won't kill our planes. So we must be vigilant, and please let's have some probe teams following our troops.

I don't have much else to contribute, everything has been said

[Googlie]

Don't know if this is the appropriate place to put it, but this just posted in the Angels' Embassy:

Posted in the Embassy by GeoModder
To the Spartan Junta,

This message to inform you that at present we are slightly behind on the Intellectual Integraty forwarding goal, but expect next year to make up for this.

We finally managed to fine-tune our economy, so this will give us the reserve needed to achieve our debt to you. You can count on receiving this technology pre-accepted in MY 2164.

IT GeoModder

Good news - now we can plan around it, for the CDF that year - and we should build it in a zero minerals base, as we'll be using just the 2 supercrawlers (like Sparta Command itself)

G.

[Maniac]

I agree with Zeiter's early statement about air transports: I don't see how they are useful.
We could always quickly hurry a transport cruiser in GH - it costs 40 mins. To get the same transport capacity with air transports, we'd need to build four of those - 200 minerals. Plus:
a) they move half as fast
b) they only have a range of eight before they crash
Seems little more than a prestige project to me. And while we ùay be the strongest faction at the moment, we still don't have minerals to waste IMO.

[Maniac]

Originally posted by vishniac
- Sparta Command and Sector Cratersouth are in No Growth-No minerals situation. I know you use them as logistic bases but it's like sleeping money. With recycling tanks, they could at least s-l-o-w-l-y grow and produce.

Well, if SC1 & SC4 got an extra mineral, I would immediately suggest rehoming another unit there, freeing up minerals in other bases. After all, s-l-o-w-l-y producing bases are practically useless. Why? Consider the following two scenarios:
a) You have two bases, each producing a crawler every two turns.
b) You have one base producing nothing, and another base producing as much minerals as the two bases in scenario A together. So a crawler every turn.

At first sight one might say the output is equal. In both scenarios two crawlers are produced every two turns. This is not the case however. In scenario B there's always a crawler produced one turn earlier than in scenario A. This means the crawler can harvest minerals (or something else) one turn earlier. After a while this adds up to a lot of extra resources. In Velociryx's guide this is called "comparative turn advantage".

So you see, to a certain degree (eg until eco-damage starts blowing up your terraforming) it's always better to focus your production in a couple high production bases instead of a whole bunch of low-production settlements.


Regarding recycling tanks, while they are a good investment, I can think of a better one: a supply crawler!
Consider:
For 40 minerals you get one nut, one mine and one energy (which in our case is often lost due to inefficiency)
For 30 mins and some 12 terraforming turns (mine + road on rocky) you can get 4 minerals.
Which one do you prefer?

Even when the crawler is only harvesting a forest (2 mins) I'd still opt for it, as the crawler has some additional advantages over a recycling tanks:
a) It's a unit: in other words it's mobile & flexible, and it can move to wherever it's most needed at a certain time.
b) It's a walking mineral reserve. Unlike a rec tanks, we can cash it in for some project at its full mineral value whenever and wherever we deem fit.

Originally posted by Googlie

That's probably because I'm a builder at heart and not a momentumer.

Most of us are - that's why we chose the Spartans, to gain game experience

Yeah - eg I've never run Fundamentalist before in any SMAC game.

Originally posted by Googlie
I disagree. Crèches are essential for a pop-boom strategy. Plus, they give that base a +2 efficiency (Fort Soup loses 9 energy to inefficiency – take away the crèche and it loses all its energy - 19!!!), a +1 morale for units in that base (not all our units are elite yet – c.f. Fort Soup’s scout and Fort Liberty’s Hoplite – both are Commando ++) and reduce vulnerability to mind control

For your information, children's creches only give a unit morale bonus to factions with negative SE morale. For us they even give combat penalties in certain situations! See the Treatise on Morale in the Survivalist's Guide for more detailed information. That doesn't mean I think Creches are a bad investment though!

[Googlie]

Originally posted by Maniac
For your information, children's creches only give a unit morale bonus to factions with negative SE morale. For us they even give combat penalties in certain situations!

So why, for our bases with creches, are our commando units (++) - fundy plus creches - (but our elites are just (+) in those bases)

Whereas in all others they are just (+) - fundy (even elites are (+), (which I don't understand at all)

And if anyone is wondering why, when we change from Fundy to, say, Police or Dem, the (+) still remain remember that any SE changes don't take hold until the next turn, and the Fundy (+) will be removed next turn

[Maniac]

Woops, sorry, I misinterpreted you. Units IN bases with creches indeed get a 12.5% bonus to defence (topped off at a total of +50% though, so elite units don't get a bonus).

Our units won't receive a permanent morale level bonus, unlike for units homed to a base with CC under negative SE morale. I saw you write somewhere that Fort Superiority would produce elite impact noodles (which isn't the case), so that's why I misread you.

[Zeiter]

[quote]1. Revealing our airforce too early

Small scale raid on morgan with 1-2 noodles would do more harm than good imo - pushing gaians, angels and morgan into very close alliance against us too early (I think they already work together on small scale - but that would escalate the cooperation to the dangerous level)[quote/]

This is something that I have also considered. An alternative might be to use our airforce against Yang for a few turns while we build up a large force with which to surprise Morgan. But then again, the Data Angels will know that we have Doc:Air anyways, so I don't know what the use would be in trying to hide it. And we need to take out that Morganite supercrawler ASAP.

[Googlie]

Actually, a good way of ensuring that Morgan doesn't build the CDF before us (and avoids us perhaps antagonizing the Angels thru questioning whether they deliver Int Int to Morgan the same turn as they give it us (ie, before us in turn order) is to utterly destroy Morgan's crawler and former fleets (thus he can't rush build the SP)

[Kassiopeia]

I'd be more comfortable with whacking their crawler strength as opposed to the diplomatic route. The situation is tense right now due to the PTS raid as it is. If we can get the CDF from Morgan's hands and use our current strategic momentum and advantage properly, a possible triple alliance wouldn't pose that big a risk since we'll be able to knock Morgan out and the other two are probably in no condition to engage in large scale offensive operations. If they are going to ally and attack us in unison, I think the revelation of Air Power in our hands isn't going to affect their final decision too much since it's a tactical matter - establishing an alliance in an effort to win the game is more a strategic decision.

[Snoddasmannen]

I'm not sure there is a conspiracy against us, in fact I pretty much doubt it. However, I find it very likely indeed that the Angels will forward IntInt to the Morgans. Morgan bases being well defended will slow down the war, and make the conflict more bloody. I think it makes sense for the Angels to want this, and I'm sure the Morgans will be willing to pay plenty of hard cash for it!

So taking out the crawler is a very very lucrative plan! But alas time is short

2162: We switch production to a B-4 in, for instance, Fort Buster.
2163: The B-4 is built and starts its journey westward to Morgania
2164: The B-4 swoops down and completely wipes out ... nothing, since the Morgans received IntInt that year and rushed the CDF using their crawler

But, there is one option, which I'm sure nobody will like. There is a B-6 completed in Rio Grande 2162. It will be able to strike in 2163. This trade-off is not as attractive, a 40 mineral B-6 against a 100 or 150 min supercrawler. I would still support this idea though!

PS. Oh, and obviously we should rename the B-6 class to Amphibious Gatling Rover before we attack They'll go hunting in the fungus.

[Googlie]

It's a pity that we didn't build just an Impact noodle there, but the cost would have been the same - minerals in the base plus a crawler to hurry the prototype

But look on the other side of the equation - we can replace that noodle with a crawler in 1 turn - and assure ourselves of the CDF - thereby saving 50 minerals x 15 plus bases

Here's where it is right now - of course, that's no guarantee that it'll still be there in 2163, so we'd need to be fairly adaptable:

[Snoddasmannen]

Originally posted by Googlie
Here's where it is right now - of course, that's no guarantee that it'll still be there in 2163, so we'd need to be fairly adaptable:

If it's not there (we can check in the base screens) we can simply fly back to Sparta. It will have done a good decent job in scouting for probe foils and stuff in the process.

Morgan can foil our attack however and stack the crawler with a junk unit. We wouldn't be able to see this from the base screen, and we would be forced to suicide the B-6 on something else. But I doubt they would be that sinister unless they know of our plans, and how can they?

EDIT: Another cool thing about this plan is that there is no way for a conspiracy to defeat it. The Angels can not possibly know that we have destroyed the supercrawler, so they will give both us and the Morgans IntInt preaccepted in 2164 with a rather evil grin to boot, thinking their allies will safely build it.

They may still be able to, but would they want to burn all their resources building the CDF knowing that we can deploy needlejets to bypass them?

[sentry33]

Good points on the CDF vs political route Kassi

When I've presented concern about revealing air force early - it was when I've been under impression that we wanted to use it to 'just harass morgan' without any real targets (like securing the CDF project) on mind.

Though I do not agree that presence of he Air Force is only tactical concern - It affects whole strategic situation.

--

Regarding the attack plan - they still can spot plane from the water. I am not sure about military situation in this region - do we have any sea units around?