Sid games C3C: how to improve our skills

[Drachen]

Originally posted by Mr Justice

i am worried that russia is going to far ahead. they are slight tech leaders (over hittites, im 3rd in tech), but they have between 25-50% of their homeland railroaded. im about 3 techs from industrial.

You’re at a very touchy point of the game Mr. Justice. This is where I always got broken in the many games I lost at Sid. If Russia has railroads up then they almost certainly have Communism and Fascism. They really are too far ahead and you need to find a way to slow them down enough for you to catch up. How do you plan to stop them before they get the UN or Spaceship win?

As to your invasion I think 20 SM is a bit thin but just might work. I lost a stack of 12 Invading SM on a hill in one of my games and the AI didn’t even work up a sweat. If you know how many troops the AI has nearby you might want to get to a combat calculator to check the odds.

Good luck

[vmxa1]

Drachen I was tlking about being at war, hence I can't use workers for a while.

Anyway there are many way to play. My whole idea to to bounce thoughts back and forth to see if one is better than the other.

I don't care who comes up with it, I just want to learn it.

[vmxa1]

Mr Justice understand that losing a dozen units a turn will not hurt a KAI. It probably has built all the units it can support.

This means losing some allows it to make more and maybe even better ones. The AI on islands will soon get to the point that it has noting to build, but troops. After a time, it will built to the point that is cannot support another one.


This occurs when you are doing a good job of slowing down the tech race.

A railed KAI is basically invulerable to your invasion, unless you have been doing nothing but war the whole game and have 40 or more armies with 100 or more transports.

They will have at least 1200 units and be able to bring 500 to bear instanly.

If you wait for tanks you will be in a bigger whole, you must expand. What is you plan for winning? You can't count on a vote, even if the others are at war. You can't be sure about a space launch as you may not even have the resources needed for all the parts. No others come to mind.

Hope the wa goes well, you may find a nasty surprise with those numbers and units though.

[Drachen]

[SIZE=1] Anyway there are many way to play. My whole idea to to bounce thoughts back and forth to see if one is better than the other.

I don't care who comes up with it, I just want to learn it.

We are in complete agreement on this.

So, what tribe are you playing and would you be interested in an English start?

[vmxa1]

***The formula presented below is accurate for PTW. It is probably also good for C3C, once the additional difficulty levels (e.g. Sid) have been added.

This is the formula for research cost for v1.29f.

Research Cost = [MM * [10*COST * (1 - N/[CL*1.75])]/(CF * 10)] - Research done so far

Research Cost and research done so far are in gold.

Square brackets indicate truncation /rounddown

MM = map modifier(tech rate on world sizes tab in the editor)
Tiny 160
Small 200
Standard 240
Large 320
Huge 400

CF = AI cost factor(as on the difficulty tab in the editor)
For the purposes of the research cost formula, CF has a maximum value of 10.
Chieftain 10
Warlord 10
Regent 10
Monarch 9
Emperor 8
Deity 6
Sid 4

COST = technology cost as on the civilization advances tab in the editor.

N = number of civs on the diplomacy screen that have discovered the tech.

CL = number of civs left in the game

There is only one part of the formula that varies during the game: (1 - N/[CL*1.75]). There are two ways in which you can increase it to lower tech cost:
1. Increase N by exploring and buying comms to add civs to your diplomacy screen.
2. Decrease CL by killing civs.

NB. This formula is relevant for research cost of the AI civs, not just the human player. If you are interested in the research cost of a specific technology for a specific AI civ, N refers to the number of civs on that specific AI civ's diplomacy screen that have discovered that specific tech. In general, there are two ways in which you can increase AI tech cost:
3. Keep N low by not selling comms to AI civs.
4. Keep CL high by not killing civs.
And technically...
5. Keep N low by not getting techs yourself.

**************

So as you can see eliminaton of civs will slow down the tech pace for the AI. The whole purpose of a huge map on archipelago is to slow the contacts and hence the tech pace.

Keeping them at war will slow down the pace as well. But in the end a KAI will soon be able to make 4 to 6 tech pace regardless.
You will not be able to, so you must steal.

When you play on std maps or even large ones with the normal amount of civs they will rip up the tech tree and leave you in the dust. You can recover, if you fight well. I played a game like that on contients and kill my neighbor. I was a whole age behind, but caught up. Unfortunetly I had no other AI to check the culture of the KAI and lost to culture as I was finally getting even with them.

So I feel it is important to kill of two civs for tech and because I need the land. It is not a given that a KAI will will show up and over run the others, but it is not uncommon.

The AI will take down small civs, once it get flight. The leathal bombardment will allow them to wreck the civ. You will see a bunch of carriers and know some fear.

This is where the extra land comes in as it lets me up my troops count to make the KAI not want to attack me. Once they have bombers, the easy invasion stuff is out the door.

30 bombers hitting you will not be a pleasant thing.

[vmxa1]

Last run was as Iroq, if I make a run at warmonger I would look at someone like China.

England is not bad, (Sea and Commerce?). I just don't see Seafare as all that great for Sid. I am not so crazy about the early connacts as I am not going to be doing my own research all that much.

Anyway they only give me a slight edge in locating them.

The only hassle with China is no alphabet. So I will have to see if any commerce/mil civs are about and who. France is not bad with commerce and ind for an all war civ.

I am going to be running a Moo2 test for a bit on another thread.

[Drachen]

Originally posted by vmxa1
Last run was as Iroq, if I make a run at warmonger I would look at someone like China.

England is not bad, (Sea and Commerce?). I just don't see Seafare as all that great for Sid. I am not so crazy about the early connacts as I am not going to be doing my own research all that much.

I would love to have some Chinese riders to open up my wars with but the lack of Alphabet probably means forgoing the GL and I’m just not sure if you can keep up in tech with trade alone. Probably have to try it one of these days.

I think I like Seafaring a bit more than you do because of the increased chances for trading Alphabet for all of the techs I need from the early ancient age. Especially if my island is a bit remote and that does happen quite a bit on 80% archipelago maps. I think that with England the synergy between seafaring and commerce will mean you’ll be rolling in dough and that will be the base of your power. I also really like starting with pottery because the lack of it tends to distort my actions in the early game. I’m less sure about the benefit of the Man-o-war as a UU but I’ve never tried it so we’ll see.

Good luck with your Moo3 demo and I’ll look forward to your AAR.

[vmxa1]

One of the things I would like to test is what impact, if any expansion does on Sid for huts. IOW will get any techs? Will I at least not get barbs? I know I won't get any settlers, but gold is not all bad and a warrior or two.

I know it will be a boost to the tech rate for the AI, though they probably won't get many huts on islands.

Yes with 1.22, I would say you can forget the GL if you do not start with Alphabet, that is the killer that limits your civs choices.
I have done it in 1.15, but have sometimes failed even with Alpha in 1.22.

So Russia for a shot with SGL, Abrabia for gov switching, Iroq for serious play.

France maybe for a another and then somone like China just to see what a military effort would be like. At least you would have Pottery and Mason for prebuilds, if any were needed.

[Drachen]

I did a test of Expansionist on Sid and the trait was almost useless pre 1.15b. All you get is gold, maps, and warriors and that’s just not enough of an enticement IMO.

I chose the Vikings for my current game with game settings at large 80% archipelago, normal, temperate, 4 billion years, sedentary barbs, default rules, normal aggression, and 8 random opponents. I was thinking the Vikings would yield a good warrior’s game but, pretty much as always, I come away thinking that the Militaristic trait really needs a boost and my Berserks were not much of a factor at Sid level other than starting my golden age. Why should I load up a dozen caravels to attack a city with 30 muskets when I can just drop a settler? I suppose I can’t complain too much as it’s my first Viking game ever and I’m going to win it at Sid, but I still think other tribes and traits are more attractive. I tend to agree with you about China and some of the other tribes. Now that we’re beginning to make some real headway with Sid I think we need to come up with an alternative to the GL gambit which would allow us to widen our choices.

After my upcoming English game I will probably go back to something I was working on before the large 80% archipelago maps that I’ve been winning with. I find that a standard archipelago map at 60% often yields land masses that are snakelike in shape and nearly contiguous. This means you can get to many of your opponents earlier and in greater numbers with the drawback that the tech pace speeds up significantly. This type of map could well favor a military gambit and might be worth a try.

[vmxa1]

I played Vikes in a Sid game back aways and found that Berserks are great until they met rifles. The rifles will be in large cities too, so it will be painful.

The other problem is they cannot defend at all. It is nice to take town without landing.

I ran a quick test with the Russians and agree, no sense in having huts in the game at Sid. I am messing around with France right now in a sort of half baked attempt to build up a large force.

I have been disappointed with the Military trait no matter what level in C3C. It has not added enough promotons. But I really miss my riders, so I may have to play them soon.

Maybe I will play a demi with them on a cont or pangea to really unleash some havoc.

[Drachen]

Yeah...I really like the Chinese too. Maybe I'll take a detour after my current game.

[Mr Justice]

i just started my invasion last night.

took out their horsey city and planted my own city there. ive now my own supply of horses thank u verry much.

My GA has kicked off so im churning out the units like goddo atm.

the invasion force of 52 (SMs, Trech and knights) held up well. lost about 10 SMs and 8 Knights. but i took out loads of their units im not sure how many cause when they attacked i left the room . but their main force has surrounded my City and are gunna attack next turn. id estimate ~ 60-80 units (horse, swordsman, archer, mech inf and pike (mostly attacking units))

ive also gotten 2 leaders out of it so far, including 1 from a defensive combat . makes me feel a little more confident that i'll be able to quickly clear the island. i'll use these to get an knight and SM army. that will make it much easier for me to send out a force to clear out the rest of their island. i could create the armys before all those units attach me, but i'll take the risk using elite SMs to defend this attack. (or offensive defending as i see of it) i dont want them not attacking me becuase they is scared of my SM army. (WW being my reason, they'll just sit their on a feckin volcano otherwise)

since ive mentioned WW, well ive swithced to 40% lux and have traded for all 7 of the lux, hoping that will keep it down for the time being, once i take out their SOD i'll engage them on their terrotory and clear their land before settling with my own cities. this will reduce WW. either The GA or WLTKD has improved commerse so im still pulling in 360 gpt.

ive finished the Smiths GW, and guess wot, it saved me 60gpt !! i was spot on

only 1 tech to go to get to industrial. im much less worried about the russians now. i overstated their railroad network earlier, even better, the parts that are RR are not in their CORE, also they are at war with nearly everyone, but their effectiveness is very poor on these inter island invasions. they are the largest AI, but they have not taken any new teritory in a good few turns. also no city is bigger than 12. not sure how important sanitation is to AI, but at least i know they aint a full Age ahead of me.

so as i see it they cant really roll over any civ untill they get bombers as u say. that gives me a good few turns to take out a civ or 2 prior to having to confront them.

also i didnt manage to build the GL. when i finally got littiture (after the AI, but before GL was built) my plans were scuppered cause i had not gotten construction! but imo stealing is a perfectly adaquate means of reaseach at sid. also am thinking i can sabotage any attempts by the AI to build the space craft.

diplomatic victory is out (ive that option turned off). total culture victory is unlikely cause there are 3 AIS with really big cultures. the one city culture limit is more tricky. my only option is a ROP followed by dastedly attack on said city.
dunno how i'll win the game. depends how indrustrail age goes for meh.

[Mr Justice]

not thinking about playing any more sid games atm.

this damn game of SId is just eating up my attention. poor ould counterstrike not even getting a look in

oh forgot, vxma1, the point i was making about meh tinking more civs is good has nothing to do with the number of beakers required to reaserch.

with so many civs still around, the AIs are focusing on war, and not reaserch. i feel this is valid cause im judging tech lead by the cost it cost meh to steal (more techs ahead then the more uve to pay, but ive no statistical data to back it up im fairly sure this is correct.)
the cost is fairly static in relation to meh. in fact its gone down form its peak. also hittites have over taken russia as most expaensive to steal from. so thats the basisis for my assumption that all the Warring is slowing down AI reaserch.

[Drachen]

Hey Mr. Justice;

Thanks for the update. Invasions at Sid are kind of interesting aren’t they? I'll be looking to see if you are able to stave off WW with luxuries and the slider. I'd like to add that to my bag of tricks if you can pull it off. It’s also interesting that you’ve gotten as far as you have without the Great Library. I've been wondering if it was possible to succeed at Sid without it. Not to mention no iron, no horses, no luxuries…Good work!

So, it seems your plan is to buy off WW, slow down tech acquisition generally, island hop to the major powers, chew them up, sabotage spaceship production, and win by domination or spaceship. I like it. I hope it works. Keep us posted.

[vmxa1]

The AI is not afraid to attack armies in a city, only out in the open.
I would make armies and let them do the bulk of the defending, because it will save some troops.

I would not worry about using elites as they are easy to come by at Sid. With 80 or units to kill, getting elites and leaders is not hard to do.

Killing off 1 or 2 civs is not going to make much difference in the AI's being at war. They will be at war anyway as there is no free land and that is the only way to expand.

Chances are they will not be at war with the civs I want to eliminate as those are close to me. I just want two things 1-slow down research 2- more land.