Sid games C3C: how to improve our skills

[vmxa1]

Yes, I know commie is good for late game, but if you are not religiuos, that is not an easy switch.

Plus in some games, you may not get that tech in time to apply it.
Due to the far flung empire, it is very appealing. I probably am too reluctant to suffer the anarchy as a general rule, but I always seem to be in a spot where I cannot stop production for all those turns.

It may well be worth the cost in many cases, but I can tell I don't need it, so I don't.

[Drachen]

I didn’t switch in my Swiss game until after it was won and then I went back to earlier saves to test. I did switch in my current game and still got the ToE and the tech lead. I may have been a bit more motivated since I ended up in feudalism somehow. I thought I’d pressed the tab for Republic but nooooo… I found myself in feudy and couldn’t restart due to HOF rules. It wasn’t that bad but I doubt I’ll play it again anytime soon.

[Mountain Sage]

Originally posted by vmxa1

I never tried republic at Sid, it just does not seem to make sense. I get to monarchy and stay there. If you can boost towns to cities, you get more support.

Sorry, but I did. Republic is just fine for a Sid PP game

[Mr Justice]

yea im sticking with Republic ATM.

i reckon with relatievly small military (for sid standard) i can take out the backward CIVs. becuase of the way the reasorces are in this map im leaving tackilng the bigger AIs till the late game.

for my wars im considering using the tactic of razing all captured cities and leaving them for a few turns before settling. ive few reasons for thinking this.

my culture is so low in comparison to AI that i cant afford to try deal with Cultureflipping. also this would effect any new borders i establish.
the empty space will hopefully entice the AI to try to REX into it, distract it from producing pure units.
im hopefull that this will mean most of my defending will be done outside cities and more importantly outside my Borders so those large enemy stacks will not cause any WW

i am resigning myself to the possibility of having to do another Gov switch. but only near the late game stage when money wont be important to meh. but i for the way ive played the game so far it would be pointless to be in any other gov than one which produces the most commerce

again vmxa1 i feel that gold is the one Area where i have clear advantage becuase the AI gets no bonuses here in SID. also i feel in archi maps my home island is safe so im not gunna have a militiary untill i need one. also i think i will disband my unused military rather than keep it and pay support. i will disband obsolete military in newly founded cities to reduce the cost when i rush buy all the improvements i want in those cities. as i see it this saves me well over a hundred or so Gold per rush (each shield costs 4gp in a rush buy, but if no shields already there then cost is much higher, ive no data to back this but ive investigated b4). i see no real loss in terms of production becuase many of my cities are producing wealth. i can just switch these to units. its then a matter of micromanaging the movement of my Sacrificial lambs

[Drachen]

Sounds like an interesting strategy. Let us know how it works out.

[vmxa1]

Originally posted by Mountain Sage


Sorry, but I did. Republic is just fine for a Sid PP game

Nothing to be sorry about and I know you did. AFAIK you are the only one. I would not, remember I am not going to be using diplomacy in my games. I will not be on good terms with anyone.

When civs contact me with a goofy offer I always say not a chance. Once a war starts, I rarely make peace. Given the number of troops the AI has, the wars can last the whole game, this is not good for Republic.

I don't say this is the only way or even the best way, just my way.

[vmxa1]

Mr Justice I hope it works for you. I would not worry a great deal about my homeland as the AI will probably not land large numbers there.

My concern would be that you need more land to hold your own and you can't get it without a large force. You also need to reduce the number of civs, this slows down the tech.
So you want to eliminate two civs, if you can.

I don't know if you have ever attempted to take down a civ on Sid before or not. Even the most backward civ with as few as 8 cities will muster up at least 400 units. By the time you take them out, you will have killed 700 or more.

If these are merely spears and archers you will have a hard time holding a beach head. Have you ever had 80 to 100 units attack you every turn for 4 or 5 turns?

This has happened to me many times and if they have horses as well, it is unerving, You will need muskets and a few armies and a steady flow of replacements.

Even then you want to have founded on a hill for defense. By the time they tapper down to only 20 or so, you can start to attack, if you have the troops.

If you try it with a civ that has rifles and calvs, I don't even want to talk about it. I have had them rip up my infantry armies with sheer numbers.

So keep us posted with the efforts.

[Drachen]

Originally posted by vmxa1
This has happened to me many times and if they have horses as well, it is unerving, You will need muskets and a few armies and a steady flow of replacements.

Swiss Mercenaries are an inexpensive musket replacement.

You might consider landing a settler under the cover of an army once the AI is ready to make peace. The next turn you build your city, make peace, and then build your walls and barracks while landing your garrison troops. Saves on ship building and allows you to determine when the real battle will begin. Bring at least 30 bombard units although 60 is much more comfortable. With a few armies you can direct the flow of enemy troops into the battle zone and also gain a few turn breather for your troops to heal by shifting armies and making the AI travel around them to renew the attack. Good luck.

[vmxa1]

Drachen the Swiss Merc is a pike replacement. Anyway if you are going after a civ that is on a small island with about 8 to 10 cities, in the ancient age, you won't have many ships.

They will not make peace until you beat the crap out of them and there is no reason to accept at that point. The whole idea is I want the land and them out of the game.

I won't have 30 or 60 archers and I won't have enough ships to bring them if I did. I have to land with one or two armies and add the extra units to them right away. The AI will likely not attack this stack.

I am counting on them being pretty close, so I can ferry units over to augment my original force.

The next guy will be stronger and more advanced than the first one. BY then all will be in contact.

In games were I have to go after civs later, I can bring a lot of transports and tank armies. Drop a settler and maybe found a city right away. Sometimes, you have to take a city before you can found one or use it. It depends on if they have covered all the land or not.

Now I am fighting at least calvs and cities are going to have rifles.
I may have bombers and carriers by then to help me soften things up, but it is a lot of effort.

[Drachen]

Hey Vmxa;

I’m beginning to develop a standard approach to Sid now and I think my preferred mix is a bit more builder oriented than yours. I play out starts in which I have a decent landmass to myself and I tend to do everything I can to shorten my time to Philosophy and Literature after the initial 50 turns to Writing. This tends to halt my rex until I’ve got Philosophy in my pocket and so after that I resume my REX, finish off the GL, build infrastructure, change government, and build my military. I try to get myself into a war with the neighboring AI about this time, secure my island, and generate a few armies.

The AI will be open to peace after you knock off enough of its galley dropped units and that’s when I drop the settler on their Island. I’m usually well into medieval by the time all this gets accomplished and so I honor the peace treaty using the time to buildup in my invasion city with units like…the Swiss Mercenary (SM).

I agree that SMs are designated as pike replacements, but to speak more precisely I use them in place of muskets. If you had your choice, would you build a bunch of 30 shield SMs with 1/4/1 stats or half as many muskets at 60 shields with 2/4/1 stats? I can’t remember ever having used muskets on offence and with their anemic attack strength I doubt if I ever would in common situations. Cheap SMs are able defenders when facing medieval units and when used in conjunction with a few defensive bonuses they can seriously reduce an AI military over the course of several turns.

I tend to go after one of the big AIs for my first invasion, if I can get to them, but it sounds like you might favor starting earlier and going after some of the smaller AIs. It sounds like an interesting approach and I’d be interested in some screenshots and commentary if you’d care to post.

[vmxa1]

Actually that is very similar to what I attempt. If I am alone, that is. I will beeline for the GL, getting my pumps going.

Then start a build up to be prepared for any landings. The top dog is often the first to show and I want them to send more (piecemeal) for leader builds.

About this time I am getting some galleys up to attack a weak civ, if it is close. This happens in the middle ages for me.

I am not up for the KAI, I intend to leave them alone for the most part.

Yes any civ attacking from a distance will accept peace at some point, usually a long time later. I am not concerned abut them, I thought you were talking about the civ your are invading. Otherwise what is the settler for? If I invade it is elimination time. They cannot share the land, I do not want to have to watch my back that closely.

Yes SM's can be used, but only one civ has them, so I talk about musket. Pikes are not good enough to with stand the counter attacks. I will use musket to kill of 1 HP units in front of me, I probably would not if they were SM's.

You know I won with Space launch, not exactly a warmonger ploy.

I am trying to talk myself into going for a SirPleb type game, where you just use nothing but troops to conquer. So far I have not been able to sell it to myself, to much work. It seems like fun, but I know that when you get to the point that you have 6-700 troops and maybe 20 armies or more with so many cities, it will become tiresome.

[Drachen]

Originally posted by vmxa1

Yes any civ attacking from a distance will accept peace at some point, usually a long time later. I am not concerned abut them, I thought you were talking about the civ your are invading. Otherwise what is the settler for? If I invade it is elimination time. They cannot share the land, I do not want to have to watch my back that closely.

I was talking about the AI you’re trying to invade. You go to war with them early and when they’re ready to make peace you found your settlement. Why? Because you’re going to need a lot of units in your invasion city and you can get them in place with fewer losses if you don’t have the AI throwing hundreds of units at you. You’re going to want walls, barracks, and roads around your city and that takes a couple of turns at least. You can have a smaller navy if you transport in waves. It just seems to me that setting up the battle zone to your liking makes more sense than going in under fire when the cost is just a little bit of time in a long game.

[vmxa1]

No roads, until I have control of the surrounding area. I do not want to have workers out and have to guard them. In fact I probably do not have any workers at this time.

Like I said, if I invade it is final. No peace, I will be in despotism or monarchy and not have any WW issues. If I land and they cannot throw me off in the first two turns or so, they are toast. I will grind them out.

I may found a city right away, if I can and if I do, I will rush a barrack. Then a temple, then a lib.

The wall, I don't need as by the time I could put it up (3rd turn or later), I have already made it pass the rough time.

I would rather get some culture going to let me have access to more roads and deny it to them.

As to peace, they just do not seem to offer until at least 20 turns or the lost of lots of cities.

even the game I am playing now, I have been at war with them for so long, I forgotten. I have taken lots of cities and kill everything in range, but not a peep for peace.

I have a spy, so I know they are getting thin on troops and lost 15 or more cities. I took their only oil. I took saltpetter and lux, but they have not even contacted me.

To bad for them as I have lots of armies and will be using tanks very soon. My point is, I just do not see the AI asking for peace quickly at any level.

[Mr Justice]

im just getting ready for an invasion of Arabia, to my left. its 890AD, so im feeling the time pressure.

the geopolitical situation is that there is a major war currently being waged between the 3 biggest AIs, some of the smaller AIs are also involved. Russia is top dog, tho hittites are the highest culture and score. roughly its russia (#2) and babylon (#3) and america (#7) against hittites (#1) and egypt (#9) and celts (#8)
im #4 and aribia is #6. only other civ is mongols #5.

that is perfect for me. i ve kept all the big AIs polite to me and i dont think im percieved as a threat. this will allow me to wage wars against some of the minor CIVs without worring about my back (ie im chancing leaving no military on my lands).

im not sure i agree with your point about reducing the number of Civs vmxa1, russia, teritorially the biggest CIV, is engaged in a number of inter island wars and as far as i can see, the most units their sending as invasions is 8. obviously thats far to small a force to defeat the much weaker (even tho spearmen is their main defenders) AIS, its just depleating and distracting russia.

im planning to invade Arabia with a force of 20 SM, 20 Trech and 20 or so knights. their best unit is swordsman, but predominatley spearmen and archers. (theyve stalled their own economy). once the war starts my GA will kick off and knights production will peak at around 10 every 3 turns or so.i can take their iron and horses out on the first turn of the war. ive about 15 turns left on my horses Deal. its a small force i know, but i can land on hills and follow the chain of hills down the island. my SMs with hill defence bonuses against at best Swordsmen. ofc im counting on them attacking me with those big stacks. i dont yet have enuf knights to take out the ~20 units defending each of arabias cities (34 in capital, id estimate ~200 for the civ). i will have around 18 caravels to handle the invasion and the subsequent resupply (i will use a chain of carevels). it will take me another 5-10 turns before i have all the units in the right positions to begin.
depending on WW, i might break the invasion into 2 stages with short peace period between. (i always request peace, no point waiting for them to offer, am hoping anyway.). ive also a supply of 6 settlers for the subsequent colinization.dont need workers. not sure if this will work, i'll keep my save warm.

other important developments are that ive definately gotten Smiths GW. ive 10 turns to completion, and only 1 other civ has the tech and he aint building it.my economy is booming at +467gpt (823 incomming gp, 205 corruption, 119 maint, ~40gp support and rising)
ive still no FP. i want to build it in arabia and make that island productive. smiths GW should save me in the region of 60 gpt atm.

found some more sources of saltpeter (1 in arabia), but im thinking of bypassing calvary altogether. and waiting for tanks. also iron appeared on my island, but not that useful cause i had already secured that. im confident that i will have the main industrial reasources on my land (i started with no iron, horses and saltpeter) i deserve a break .

i am worried that russia is going to far ahead. they are slight tech leaders (over hittites, im 3rd in tech), but they have between 25-50% of their homeland railroaded. im about 3 techs from industrial. im gunna have to build up my worker supply again. i reduced it by half to grow my main cities. i will use new cities and outlying cities on my island to build these.


{edit}
Vmxa1, im not building any librarys or unis, so culture is a no no for meh. im not doing any of my own reasearch and Culture points confer no benifit to me so im not trying to maximise culture points.
the only buildings ive built is granery, aquaduct, temple, cathedral, marketplace, harbors, banks and courthouses.

[Drachen]

Originally posted by vmxa1
No roads, until I have control of the surrounding area. I do not want to have workers out and have to guard them. In fact I probably do not have any workers at this time.

Like I said, if I invade it is final. No peace, I will be in despotism or monarchy and not have any WW issues. If I land and they cannot throw me off in the first two turns or so, they are toast. I will grind them out.

Why would you guard workers if you’re not at war? At any rate, I can see some benefits to your approach but I’ll probably continue doing things my way. I just prefer giving my troops every benefit I can and that means walls and barracks up with fortified troops inside. In my latest invasion I lost almost no troops to the first AI counter attack on my town and after I got three infantry armies fortified inside he stopped attacking even though he had huge stacks milling about outside the town. This was a bit of a problem as I always count on the AI trashing its military on my walls and then mopping up afterwards. We got it done though and I now control the entire island of the Aztecs who were at #2 at wars outset. I’m the current tech leader and I plan to take out the AIs who can’t be mollified, Aztecs and Byzantines, followed by a rush to the UN and an alliance against France at #1.

I’m playing as the Vikings in this game Vmxa and I was wondering who you decided to go with. Also, I’ve generated a lot of maps for the English and if anyone would be interested I’d be willing to ferret out a good one for a few of us to try. I think Elizabeth could be a good choice at Sid although not as strong as the Dutch.