Your SID level experiences

[vmxa1]

If I go it will have to be soon, before they get better units. Don't know if thy have horses or saltpetter. No horse units in London.
They are probably working on GunPowder now. I think they have invention.

They have no money to get any allies, but I guess that does not mean much.

[vmxa1]

Here is the map that shows a good landing point on Nottingham, if it is not guarded. I would only need one turn at sea to get there. I would have to go with maybe 10 cats and 20 other units.
Something like 5 knights, 5 pikes and assorted others. I have 15 galleys.

Sort of a do or die. Other choice is to bail out. I will not be able to raise enough cash and cannot count on resources, if I could get the techs.

Wait I just looked to see if all my neighbrs are strong. I knew Celts, Japand and I thought India were it. I now see Zulu is not too far and they are weaker than anyone. I woould need at least two turns at sea.

[vmxa1]

Forgot the map:

[vmxa1]

War broke out with the big boys. I have launched towards England.

I dropped an embassy with Rome and found it very ugly.
They have 78 troops in Rome. Mostly infantry. God knows how many they have altogether.

[Drachen]

Originally posted by ErikM

Chieftess on CFC did some testing for income/production under differnt governments in this thread.
Based on this data, incomplete as they may be, it seems to me that republic is still superior to communism income-wise. [I have not tried Communism in C3C though so I'll refrain from further comments]. It is also clear from her table (and this is something that agrees with my experience) is that the difference between Rep and Dem is miniscule.

Thus, I don't really see a point in revolting more than once (to Republic).

Hi Erik;

I appreciate your response. As to the particulars of your post they are well thought out and defended as usual, but I’m convinced that at least 2 government changes are needed at Sid. It seems worthwhile to get out of Despotism relatively early and at Sid waiting for Democracy is probably a non-starter. So you choose between Republic, Feudalism, or Monarchy. I happen to like Republic but the others have their uses. If you plan to live by tech theft then maximizing income is crucial and in my experience Monarchy isn’t strong enough economically to keep you in the tech theft race. Populations in both Republic and Feudalism suffer from war weariness (WW) and that is their downfall when thinking about inter-island invasions at Sid because the numbers of troops that the AI hits you with will cripple your economy via WW in just a couple of turns. It seems to me that if you’re going to have big industrial age invasions then you need a Government with zero WW. Communism can’t match up economically with freer governments but they do have advantages that make up for it. One of the big advantages I see, other than zero WW, is veteran spies. Veteran spies mean your tech theft doesn’t fail as often and fewer failures is probably approximately equivalent to more income in regards to tech theft. The main point I’m making is that I don’t believe that staying in Republic at Sid is the best strategy and therefore the Religious trait becomes more attractive.

The potential value of a switch to Democracy after your second government is more difficult to quantify because there are so many variables. How much income do you lose while in anarchy and how quickly can you make it up afterwards? How much do you gain from the increased shield yield in your outer cities? Can you get a market or bank one turn earlier? Does the increased worker efficiency get your income and production up fast enough to make a significant difference compared with Republic? I don’t really know but it does seem likely that the design team tried to give Democracy advantages which would offset the WW and make switching sensible for builders. The main question seems to be how long it takes for those advantages to make up for the lost time in anarchy.

That being said, I’d still like to know what your preferred strategy is and why the tribe you choose to play is well suited to that gambit.

[Drachen]

Originally posted by ErikM

I never really liked WEs because they are expensive. They are not very strong and they appear at a point in the game where 70 shields is a lot. That they don't require resources is a doble-edged sword, since you cannot do "disconnect iron-build horses-upgrade to knights" gambit. Building a serious force of them from scratch is likely to be difficult.

Looks like you are doing alright in your game Drachen. Who is this huge cyan-colored blob?

Celts with Sumeria on top.

IMO if you like Knights then you’ll love War Elephants (WE). They cost the same as a Knight IIRC and that extra hit point along with retreat makes them very tough. As to the upgrade gambit I find that I build 5 to 10 horsemen before Chivalry and at 120 Gold per upgrade that’s about all I can afford to spend if I want to have enough money to steal my way into the tech race later. You build a few more as needed and you’ve got yourself an effective little force which I find adequate for securing my island and starting my Golden age.

[Drachen]

Hey Vmxa1;

You seem to be playing the Early Warfare Gambit quite a bit but it doesn’t seem to be keeping you in the tech race. This is no criticism since I fall behind the AI every time as well but just not as early. You get more land. I get more tech. We both end up losing, but I’m thinking that being equal in tech at Steam power gives me a better shot at staying even through the Industrial age as I increase my empire. So I wonder how it is you hope to parlay your large land base into a means to keep the AI from winning by Diplomatic or Space Race?

[ErikM]

Originally posted by Drachen
That being said, I’d still like to know what your preferred strategy is and why the tribe you choose to play is well suited to that gambit.

I have not quite decided yet on post-Education strategy Drachen. I would like to see how my game develops so far.

I have not played much since my last update. After finishing Ottomans I used my cash stockpile to rush some basic infrastructure. I am at war against Sumerians (this war never ended) but so far I was mostly holding their counteroffensive. Eliminating Ottomans unfortunately means that now I have a wide front against them. Luckily they throw most of their forces along a narrow corridor to Edirne, so once I have enough MWs I'll attack them elsewhere while playing defensively in the Edirne sector.

I was holding back MWs so far to let my cities grow a bit so they'll benefit more from the inevitable Golden age. I hope that Salamanca will be capable of producing MWs in one turn once in the Golden Age. I like MWs because they are cheap and good enough offensively. Resource scarcity in C3C means that they remain effective for a long time against ironless tribes.

If my war plans will be successful, I might be able to hold my own technologically by stimulating wars between other Civs. But I have to get to this stage first. If it turns out that I don't have enough income it would be theft-time

Did you try for any wonders apart from the GL Drachen? I'm contemplating whether I have a chance at Leo's with a pre-build. One disadvantage of using a GL is that I am at mercy of other civs tech-wise - I discover what they discover

As for tribes, well, it is a combination of traits and UUs. My preferrred traits are Sea+Sci (Byzantines) but I did not want to play them since my previous (Demi) game was with them. Dutch traits are great, but they (together with their UU) are more suitable for a builder-style play. Iroquois have decent traits and a good warmonger UU and I like them so far. The only drawback is that sci improvements are so damn expensive.

War Elephants cost the same as a Knight IIRC and that extra hit point along with retreat makes them very tough.

I didn't know that WEs have an extra hit point. Is this a new feature of C3C?

Anyway, I'll post next installment as soon as I'll have enough progress to report.

Good luck at your game.

Cheers,
-- ErikM

[vmxa1]

Originally posted by Drachen
Hey Vmxa1;

You seem to be playing the Early Warfare Gambit quite a bit but it doesn’t seem to be keeping you in the tech race. This is no criticism since I fall behind the AI every time as well but just not as early. You get more land. I get more tech. We both end up losing, but I’m thinking that being equal in tech at Steam power gives me a better shot at staying even through the Industrial age as I increase my empire. So I wonder how it is you hope to parlay your large land base into a means to keep the AI from winning by Diplomatic or Space Race?

I really have no offensive ability due to the isolation. I can't get to anyone. So I am not able to use any gambit so far, other than try to stay alive.

I have only once been able to get a start that let me get enough land to be in the running. That was snuffed because no ther AI was big enough to stop the culture race.

In this one there are a few equal sized civs, so culture will not be an issue. I am not sure about the space race. If I can get to some one, I could start to get in the tech race.

The problem is the axe could fall any time. I agree that it is important to get to parity in tech in the industrial age.

[vmxa1]

Drachen I was interested in the talk about gov switches. My main issue with it is that you need to get the tech first.

I would say that is you are non-rel you can switch only once.
I am leaning towards thinking that a switch to Monarchy for a REL civ is viable. Republic would need a very large empire and is not going to work for island maps.

If I get to Communism, I am free to do what I want.

[vmxa1]

Originally posted by ErikM


I didn't know that WEs have an extra hit point. Is this a new feature of C3C?

-- ErikM

Yup.

[vmxa1]

Stole my first tech, Invention.
Trade Chiv + Theo + 10 gold for Gunpowder and I have two deposits.

[Drachen]

Originally posted by ErikM

Did you try for any wonders apart from the GL Drachen? I'm contemplating whether I have a chance at Leo's with a pre-build.

-- ErikM

Hey Erik;

The extra hit-point for WE is a new feature in C3C and a six hit-point Elite WE is a unit that’s not going to lose very often. How much fun do you think it’d be to grab a pike and try to kill an armored elephant on steroids?

I once got The Statue of Zeus but I never tried for Leo’s etc thinking it would just be too many shields to risk. I do think that a Scientific civ might have a shot at one of the great Middle age wonders since they’ll be first to Writing and Literature giving a little better chance at a SGL. I don’t know which one I’d build though.

I’ve got a question for you and Vmxa1. I’ve started a second game as Byzantines and the turf is worth fighting for, but I have little experience at early warfare at Sid. I’m going to post a couple of screen shots and would appreciate your input as to tactics and build order.

[Drachen]

and...

[ErikM]

Drachen!

Yup, that's exactly the type of map I would be looking for. Good growth and good commerce.

I don't have much experience with Sid fighting - Iroquouis game is my first serious try although I restarted like 10 times before finding a "doable" map and played a couple of starts for 20-25 turns before deciding that it was hopeless.

I've won several games on Deity though in pre-C3C times with plentiful early warfare, so here is my $0.02:

1) Ultra-early wars - these are basically slave rides, ie you attack AI settlers if their escort does not look formiddable. You fight them with whatever is available, warriors, archers, chariots... You gotta judge if ultra-early wars are safe though. If AI is located 8-10 tiles away from your cities they cannot really hurt you much - when their hordes will make it to your undefended cities they'd be willing to talk peace and worst case scenario you'll give them all your gold for peace (usually it is not much, less than two slaves would cost). The benefit is that you get free workers while trimming AI at the same time and slow down their expansion.

2) Warrior->Sword upgrade - attack the weakest AI, preferrably those AIs that don't have iron connected yet. 8-10 upgraded swordsmen are usually enough to make some decent progress (on Deity at least)

3) Later on, I kinda go with the flow. If some AIs look weak, I'd try to take them out with swords, kniggets, or whatever is handy. I am unimpressed with generic Knights vs Pikeman odds, so if AIs look strong I'd try to switch to builder and hold off warfare until Cavalry. Of course you may be drawn into wars regardless. Then you simply have to judge the cost/benefit ratio of fighting a full-scale war vs. some limited defensive action.

Good luck, and keep us posted