Your SID level experiences

[vmxa1]

Drachen here are the few things I have encountered. First when I have layout like that I could not expcet to win a fight If it brokeout
in the first 50 or so turns. I have also been hurt by barbs. They can kill warriors and spears more often than not.

If you can get some distance from their capitol, you got a good shot at out playing them. They will have 18 starting units. If they do not fan out before you engage, you are doomed.

You cannot build temples instead of workers/settlers/troops when that close. You do not have the time.

I like to do the settler bop or worker grab from this spot, once I see them spread out a bit. You need to have a place to trap them.
This mean a hill near your city or on a path the AI selects. You need the defense. If you can get them to toss a few units at your defenses in small bunches, then you have a shot a hurting them.

If it goes fair, you get peace and trim back some of their units. This is not enough, if you cannot follow up. They will have too many cities by turn 12 or so.

Better yet, if you can go on a limited offense, once they slow down the attack. If you can raze or capture a city, you can get something for peace.

Here I dislike the trait you have for this situation. A UU like jav thrower or some strong early one can help you. You also need the free techs to lend you a leg up in combat, such as having archers.

[vmxa1]

The map you have is one that I have learn to not love so much. I have seen you guys get those early contacts and tech swaps, but it is very hard to not get eliminated if you have several civs very near.

Well maybe you can show us the way.

BTW I had a similar start and had several civs with stacks of 4-8 units all around me very early. I was losing units to barbs as the AI seemed to wait until I fought them before it kills them.

Once one declared on me, it was lights out.

[vmxa1]

Wars are all over the place and I am not even sure of who I am fighting. I grab two cities fom Celts and one from england on a tiny island.

[vmxa1]

Now if this was a poker tourney, I could probably make the final table from here, but those big stacks will be a bugger.

[Drachen]

Hmmm...now if I can just get some iron.

[vmxa1]

It is 1670AD and I have given up. No one is at war with me, but I am not able to grab any more land.

England had over 40 units in Nottignham and called out many more. Zulu was probably the same

It looks like none of the wars lead to any real combat.

[Drachen]

Originally posted by ErikM
Drachen!

Yup, that's exactly the type of map I would be looking for. Good growth and good commerce.

I don't have much experience with Sid fighting - Iroquouis game is my first serious try although I restarted like 10 times before finding a "doable" map and played a couple of starts for 20-25 turns before deciding that it was hopeless.

I've won several games on Deity though in pre-C3C times with plentiful early warfare, so here is my $0.02:

1) Ultra-early wars - these are basically slave rides, ie you attack AI settlers if their escort does not look formiddable. You fight them with whatever is available, warriors, archers, chariots... You gotta judge if ultra-early wars are safe though. If AI is located 8-10 tiles away from your cities they cannot really hurt you much - when their hordes will make it to your undefended cities they'd be willing to talk peace and worst case scenario you'll give them all your gold for peace (usually it is not much, less than two slaves would cost). The benefit is that you get free workers while trimming AI at the same time and slow down their expansion.

2) Warrior->Sword upgrade - attack the weakest AI, preferrably those AIs that don't have iron connected yet. 8-10 upgraded swordsmen are usually enough to make some decent progress (on Deity at least)

3) Later on, I kinda go with the flow. If some AIs look weak, I'd try to take them out with swords, kniggets, or whatever is handy. I am unimpressed with generic Knights vs Pikeman odds, so if AIs look strong I'd try to switch to builder and hold off warfare until Cavalry. Of course you may be drawn into wars regardless. Then you simply have to judge the cost/benefit ratio of fighting a full-scale war vs. some limited defensive action.

Good luck, and keep us posted

Hey Erik;

Thanks for the advice. I ended up going for a fake war to give myself time to Rex. My Byzantines and the Maya in Blue are on either side of the cyan Celts. I discovered writing on the next turn, declared war on the Maya, and brought the Celts into an alliance against them for about the next 50 turns. This seemed to keep both of them well occupied and I hope that their Golden Ages were wasted making units to send against one another. I haven’t been in a battle yet and I hope not to be because I don’t relish the idea of facing Gallic sword stacks with a few horsemen. If I end up with a bit of saltpeter I may bide my time until cavalry since I don’t have any Iron and the only supply on my island is one city away from the Celts capital.

[Drachen]

Originally posted by vmxa1
It is 1670AD and I have given up. No one is at war with me, but I am not able to grab any more land.

England had over 40 units in Nottignham and called out many more. Zulu was probably the same

It looks like none of the wars lead to any real combat.

Sorry about your game. Let us know when you're going to tilt the windmill again.

[Theseus]

v: I am not a Sid-level player (yet!), but your map screams "MARINES!" at me.

[vmxa1]

Originally posted by Theseus
v: I am not a Sid-level player (yet!), but your map screams "MARINES!" at me.

My take is that you are not going to get to Marines. If you do, you have the game in hand anyway. You can see marines and that is why I gave up. It was only a matter of time.

Now I am trying the Poor mans marine and you guys. The Vikes.

[vmxa1]

Originally posted by Drachen


Sorry about your game. Let us know when you're going to tilt the windmill again.

One more shot with the Vikes on a std map. I drew an island with America. It was off to a bad start. I looked up and they had a city next to my capitol. We soon had a war and got them to give up 300 gold + IW.

I had went on an all archer build nearly from the start. No granary yet due to wars. They even cut the road to my cow.


Army is Archer Archer Spear so it kills anything it sees.

I took your tact and raced to Lit via Phil. US is making most of the wonders.

I got a second war when we both tried to settle in a location that I have autorazed. They had a left over unit in my land so I called them out. They bit and I took down the settler combo.

Must have killed 30 units so far by using traps and terrain. The 0 range is paying off. I can't make the second army as I do not have enough cities yet.


I have two GL's so far in this war. All contacts.

[Theseus]

Originally posted by vmxa1
My take is that you are not going to get to Marines. If you do, you have the game in hand anyway. You can see marines and that is why I gave up. It was only a matter of time.

Now I am trying the Poor mans marine and you guys. The Vikes.

?? #1: C'mon, do you mean you fear AI Marines? You've got a good and defensible home continent. On the attack, do you not think you can deliver a meaningful Marine force before MIs?

?? #2: As you know, I haven't been around as much as I'd like, including for this thread. I had been planning EXACTLY that: Scandy on an archi map. Played right (to the level of art that Aeson demo'd with Jags), you can smack around much more advanced AI civs at will... upgrade from lowly Archers ferchrissakes, 2 (or more) attack advantage for almost an entire age, and a pretty easy GA to boot. Junk traits otherwise (well, not completely), but that ain't the point on Sid, is it.

Tell you what, v, I was gonna play one of the two demi games, but if you post a Sid start as Scandy I'll jump up and try that with you.

/me mutters: WTF am I getting myself into?

[vmxa1]

Originally posted by Theseus


?? #1: C'mon, do you mean you fear AI Marines? You've got a good and defensible home continent. On the attack, do you not think you can deliver a meaningful Marine force before MIs?

Way back I build an embassy with Rome (#2). They had 78 units in that city alone. Mostly infantry. I was at least a whole age behind in tech. Just got gunpowder and they probably had tanks.

Yes I could have make it hard to kill me, but soon they would be showing up with bombers and many many ships. It would have been tedious at best. In the end they would get culture win soon.

Well actuall Japan was in first place.

I was so far from getting marines and I would bet they had at least 1000 units, maybe 2,000.

Little England had a few hundred as best as I could tell.

[Paddy]

Hi Vmxa1,

not to thrash a well riden horse, but your game play would make a fantastic story. I remember well your decision, it is just that alot of people read through the stories forum that may not come to this thread.

It is all good.

Paddy

[vmxa1]

Originally posted by Theseus

?? #2: As you know, I haven't been around as much as I'd like, including for this thread. I had been planning EXACTLY that: Scandy on an archi map. Played right (to the level of art that Aeson demo'd with Jags), you can smack around much more advanced AI civs at will... upgrade from lowly Archers ferchrissakes, 2 (or more) attack advantage for almost an entire age, and a pretty easy GA to boot. Junk traits otherwise (well, not completely), but that ain't the point on Sid, is it.

Tell you what, v, I was gonna play one of the two demi games, but if you post a Sid start as Scandy I'll jump up and try that with you.

* Theseus mutters: WTF am I getting myself into?

First I would love to see you play one out. I have had a few good tries and several bad ones. It is hard to prevent a culture lose and even harder to not get whacked early.

Here is an example. Current game was actually going well, but America was right on top of me at the start.

I was able to have tech parity the whole ancient era and just lost the GL race (made Epic). Russia killed the Aztecs.
I was pinned after taking one city from America. They lost about 30 units to my 10 in two wars and paid me to end both.

They have now massed another stack of 26 and a backup one of 6 and look to be ready for more fighting. I have maybe 16 units in the capitol (1 army) and can probably beat them off.

It will be hard now to start alive or expand as they make units so fast. I have 6 cities and can get about 1 each turn. I know they can send at least 3 new ones each turn.

I cannot stop making troops lon enough to build a settler and if I did I could not hold it as that would thin out the line even more.

Anyway it has been some hard work to try to find a winning play.
If I could manage to stop the flow and take one city, I could push them back. Then as you say I think the Beserkers could be used to grab cities, but it get very hard later.

The numbers of troops the AI makes when islolated is frightening.