Silly Rules succession game

[rjmatsleepers]

Originally posted by Old n Slow
Go ahead & jump ahead.

OK - I'll play today and post the results same time tomorrow.

RJM at Sleepers

[rjmatsleepers]

We have discovered Democracy (which is a real pain in the thing of my neighbours that I must not covet) and leadership (which will allow a bit more aggression). We are well on our way to Mysticism which will help with unhappiness.

I wasted a few shields moving the palace construction around and I got in a panic and rushed a musketeer in Verdun - particularly silly since I disbanded the pikeman a few turns later anyway.

We have peace with the French (for a few turns) and we can have peace with the Sioux if we want it.

I have left a few problems for the next player to sort out. I'm sure there is a ship chain to Chartres in there somewhere, but I couldn't get it working. My advice is to use the rabbit's rule exemption to avoid democracy - I suspect even despotism might be better.

Good luck.

RJM at Sleepers

(edited for typos and to add name.)

[rjmatsleepers]

And here is the log

I review the ram shackle kingdom we have developed. With 2 triremes and 2 caravels, democracy will be very difficult. At the moment we will discover democracy too late for the revolution in 1778, but any increase in research or caravan deliveries will bring that forward. I invesigate Xining our size 5 cities, but I decide to reduce production by employing einsteins. We will buy shields with the money from caravan deliveries. This increases beakers from 54 to 90. Since we are going to rely on caravan deliveries for income, I reduce taxes to 10% and increase science to 70% (=101 beakers)

1768 Adjust production in certain cities to avoid lost shields on completion of caravans. Disband phalanx in Leiden. Hit return

1770 Sioux abandon Leos French change to Monarchy Fright Wig and beeblebrox build yet more gems. Silly Walks goes into revolt and I decide to Xin it (plus Fright Wig, Wabbit and Beeblebrox). Revolt to Republic. Begin palace in Leiden. Switch to caravan in Goodie at cost of 3 shields.

1772 Sioux start Leos. French catapult approaches New Chuckles. Set research to 80% with 20% luxury - beakers now 146. Gold: Fright Wig - Tours (86) Gold: Beeblebrox - Tours (106) Incrementally rush caravans in Monty Python, Wabbit and Bozo.

1774 Sioux abandon Leos. Build gold caravan in MP, beads in Bozo and hides in Wabbit. Discover Democracy (decline opportunity to revolt) and begin researching leadership. Start Palace in MP (which has no shields) Switch to Caravan in Leiden (sacrificing 2 shields). Move lots of caravans into an impromptue parking lot around MP. Incrementally rush caravan in Silly Walks and musketeer in Chuckles. Decide to see if the French will give peace for democracy but they won't talk.

1776 Macauly says we are 5th most advanced civ. 3 catapults appear arround Chuckles. Build bead caravan in Silly Walks. Gems: Silly Walks - Chartres (82) Get 2 of the catapults with the musketeers.

1778 Sioux start Leos. Decide to ignore Atawas rule so no revolt. 3rd Catapult comes too close to Chuckles musketeer and dies.

1780 French start leos. We discover leadership and start researching mysticism. I disband one of the pikemen in Chuckles to increase production. Rename it Verdun. Speak to the French who give us peace in exchange for democracy. Speak to the Sioux who ask for leadership - I turn them down.

1782 French knight appears outside Verdun.

1784 French have nearly completed Leos; French develop steam engine. Knight moves away from Verdun. Spanish start Leos. Gems: Goodie - Chartres (72) Beads: Bozo - Chartres (56)

RJM at Sleepers

[La Fayette]

Re: And here is the log

Originally posted by rjmatsleepers
Since we are going to rely on caravan deliveries for income, I reduce taxes to 10% and increase science to 70% (=101 beakers)
RJM at Sleepers

I would do exactly the contrary:
If my science mostly comes from caravan deliveries, I would set taxes up to 70% in order to improve incremental rushbuilding of those caravans and deliver more.

[rjmatsleepers]

Re: Re: And here is the log

Originally posted by La Fayette

I would do exactly the contrary:
If my science mostly comes from caravan deliveries, I would set taxes up to 70% in order to improve incremental rushbuilding of those caravans and deliver more.

In general, you may be right, but during my turns we got about 145 beakers per turn from basic research and only abot 500 beakers in total from caravan deliveries. It might have been better if I could have delivered demanded goods, but I thought the risk of putting a caravan on French soil was too great so I only delivered by sea - mainly to Chartres. Plus the fact that I didn't get the ship chain working meant that we didn't deliver very frequently.

Lots of room for the next player to improve our trading!

RJM at Sleepers

[rjmatsleepers]

BTW in changing the name of New Chuckles I meant no disrespect to the men who fought and died at Verdun. My uncle was killed at Loos and my grandfather was wounded in the 3rd Ypres so I know that in RL sending ill equiped troops against a well defended position is not a laughing matter.

RJM at Sleepers

[Old n Slow]

RJM -- Good Stuff.

JRabbit -- feel free to jump in -- we're kind of waiting for atawa & the archer, but no need to wait overlong...

Looks like we won't get to build Leo's...maybe we can acquire it some other way

I really think that we could use a statue hint hint

[-Jrabbit]

Not sure if I'll have time tonight, Thursday is Anniversary #16 (expensive French food and no Civ), and Friday is booked.

Couldn't help but notice

1780 We discover leadership

finally, we can get offensive!!! (Well, as long as the enemy cooperates by staying on the proper diagonals...)

Will D/L and see if I have time tonight. If no posting Thursday a.m., assume a lengthy delay and feel free to jump back in, Old'n.

[rjmatsleepers]

Re: Re: And here is the log

Originally posted by La Fayette

I would do exactly the contrary:
If my science mostly comes from caravan deliveries, I would set taxes up to 70% in order to improve incremental rushbuilding of those caravans and deliver more.

When I replied before, I forgot that a significant number of our beakers came from Xining and that these would be available whatever the science setting. However, the main problem was a bottle neck in transporting caravans to France. Even with 0% tax, I could still pay for the white goods and rush caravans faster than I could deliver them. Tacking the caravels and triremes adds so much distance, that I think it would not be possible to deliver more than 1 caravan per turn on average (because the final delivery is by trireme that can only hold 2 caravans and needs a turn to get back in position). There was no problem building caravans at that rate.

If there is no delivery problem, the crucial factor is how big the delivery bonus is. If (on average) the bonus is larger than the cost of rushing the caravans then there is no need to use tax dollars for that purpose. It doesn't take a very high proportion of demanded deliveries to achieve this.

BUT if on average the delivery bonus does not cover rush costs (and there are no transport constraints), using tax dollars to build caravans will increase beakers.

(At least that's the way it looks to me - more experienced players may wish to comment.)

RJM at Sleepers

[-Jrabbit]

Looks like it will be a couple days before I can do this. Probably Monday before I can post.
Atawa is doing some RL, so Straybow is up.

If I get some civtime, I'll check in to ensure the archer hasn't already played...

[La Fayette]

RJM

1) If there is a bottleneck, this means that a high priority should be given to building ships instead of caravans.

2) A simple way to calculate whether a caravan is worthwhile:
- consider that 1 gold = 1 beaker (since you can either get more gold or more beakers by moving the tax slider)
- consider that the 'One Time Bonus' on delivery is twice the gold you get (because if you get 40g, you know you also get 40 beakers)
- consider that this doesn't take into account the continuing trade route(s) created (you could do that by calculating the Net Present Value of the flow of gold you will receive during the following years, but I don't think it's worth the effort)

Example:
A caravan rushbuilt from scratch costs 50g for the first row, then 25g for each of the 4 following rows = 150g (or more, after Feudalism, Chivalry and Gunpowder).
If you know that this caravan brings at least 60 or 70g when delivered undemanded in a given city, you can rushbuild from scratch: it's worth it (IMO, because 70 + 70 + 10 = 150, and 10 is a low estimate for the value of the continuing trade route and other side benefits of the delivery).

Rushbuilding from scratch is an important decision to take because it provides twice as many caravans as rushbuilding from 'some' shields in the box.
I think that many players are too wary in that matter. Perhaps this will induce them to rushbuild caravans more aggressively.

[La Fayette]

This is a smilie sent to other economists posting (or having posted) here, such as Adam Smith, East Street Trader, Carolus, DrSpike and many others that I forget.

Of course the above calculations are not the end of it.
What should be done is to compare the potential profitability of all possible investments, but we all know it is hazardous enough to be no use at all.

The above guidelines help me. I hope they will help a few others...
and there is plenty of room left for discussion about choice of investments in civ2

[Straybow]

Sorry I've been incommunicado lately. What few hours I could spend online happened to coincide almost exactly to the downtimes. I suspected the Illuminati finally found my location, so had to hide my trail and slip over to another safe house.

Oops, did I say that out loud?

The truth is even more terrifying: the gremlins have been at work here as well as on Settler II. My fancy-schmancy CD player is on the friz due to untraceable problems, and the terminal housing on one of my awe-inspiring speakers broke apart.

I am now suffering a severe lack of sonic stimulation. I hope to wrestle a few turns of Civ in today or tomorrow, despite my woes.

[rjmatsleepers]

Originally posted by La Fayette
RJM

1) If there is a bottleneck, this means that a high priority should be given to building ships instead of caravans.

You are right. If I had rushed a caravel at Monty Python during my first turn rather than a caravan I would have been able to make more deliveries and we would have discovered mysticism.

Mea Culpa

(And in replaying my turns to check this out I realised I could have got Goodie celebrating and thus grown it to size 5 and set it Xining. This would have put us well on the path to Astronomy.)

Mea Maxima Culpa

2) A simple way to calculate whether a caravan is worthwhile:
- consider that 1 gold = 1 beaker (since you can either get more gold or more beakers by moving the tax slider)
- consider that the 'One Time Bonus' on delivery is twice the gold you get (because if you get 40g, you know you also get 40 beakers)

This may be a useful calculation device, but when you come to rush the next caravan (or bribe the next barbarian), you can't use virtual gold from the beakers or future gold from your trade routes - only real gold will do. And if you have to increase the tax rate in order to rush the caravan, then the "value" of the beakers from delivery has to be offset against the "lost" beakers from the reduced science rate. If there is an SSC, this is likely to be the dominant effect.

RJM at Sleepers

[Straybow]

(you could do that by calculating the Net Present Value of the flow of gold you will receive during the following years, but I don't think it's worth the effort)

Inflation is zero and there is no borrowed money with interest charges, so the calc is simple. You can do a ROI study which becomes simple to the point of trivial:
Payback period = (Cost-(delivery×2)) / (continuing trade)
For Cost < delivery×2 period = 1
/me looks for a smilie with a professor's cap and pointer