Would you like to play a game??

[Bloody Monk]

Remedial Diplomacy

Originally posted by dunnm
and the log.....

1050 BC build RJM’s canal city and call ’Canal’. PRB & toggle workers in Pas aim to get Camel for MPE. PRB camel in SSC to head for Z. Shaka won’t talk

1000 BC Shaka won’t talk

snip.....

Not sure why we have kept the Z alive ? Off shore trade partners are available ?

The Canal site is a good one, but by not chopping down the trees first, this city will always be slow to grow. Tarsus is another good choice, and btw, there is a hidden special at [62,30].

Remember this earlier discussion, post #100??

Now, back to the Game. Why is there a Zu-Settler in our city space and why is the Zu attitude still Uncooperative?? Whoever goes next needs to give them something, see about any trades we might need, and demand Tribute...this last will cause them to teleport that Settler back to Zululand.

The most powerful tool for dealing with closeby AI in Landing Games is managing their attitude thru tech gifting. This must be done whenever their attitude falls to Uncooperative. If you wait until they attack they won't talk to you, it's too late. The other reason they refuse to talk is that you refuse to give them whatever tech they demand when you open discussions and they close down immediately. Give it to them, then give them another tech and another until their attitude improves to Cordial. If you do this they will not sneak attack.

As for the crack about keeping the Zufolk alive that's "asked and answered." If what I wrote before is so hard to understand perhaps it would be easier to read solo's Guide again.

Monk

[Straybow]

Originally posted by Scouse Gits
Stu - utterly pissed from first of works retirement parties -
No money left is good - no interest from th4e civ2 bank!!

Toasted before 7pm?
Retirement!

[Scouse Gits]

Hi Stray,

Absolutely toasted - a bottle of Criaza and then (much to my shame) a bottle of Metaxa *****.

For my retirement plan see http://apolyton.net/forums/showthrea...02#post4413602

Stu

[Straybow]

I don't know much about European wines. I'm a connoisseur of the $5 Cali/Oz crap vintages. Or at least my budget is.

Yep, saw the boat I'm more of a landlubber, but I'll have to come visit Mallorca some time.

I hear the maggot cheese is excellent.

Oh, forgot to say:

Canal
Now, what about the hidden specials?

[Bloody Monk]

Originally posted by Straybow
Oh, forgot to say:

Canal
Now, what about the hidden specials?

And Tarsus is also a canal!! Gordium could have been one, too, but without a northern port there isn't a real need. But, before mining acres of grass, a couple more cities would be good, such as using the whale at [63,35] and building a station city for Arb (for road bonus to Zim) at [70,12].

With the first seven cities down the next player may want to play 10 turns. See how much time you have and play 10 or 20. After that we will go with 10.

Who wants to be next??

Monk

[Elephant]

4000-3000: Scouse Gits
3000-2000: Elephant
2000-1000: RJMatSleepers
1000-500: DunnM

a few "I'm in"s haven't played yet...

[Sharkbait]

I'll have a crack at messing things up some....

[rjmatsleepers]

Originally posted by Sharkbait
I'll have a crack at messing things up some....

Good luck - when in doubt, build a van.

RJM

[Sharkbait]

I'm done - will post the log later today.

Deliver the silk first!!!!! - message to the next player!!!!

I didn't always build a van when in doubt - there were elephants, libraries, triremes, and of course settlers!

[rjmatsleepers]

Originally posted by Sharkbait
I'm done - will post the log later today.

Deliver the silk first!!!!! - message to the next player!!!!

I didn't always build a van when in doubt - there were elephants, libraries, triremes, and of course settlers!

It's dangerous to comment without seeing the save, but elephants and libraries? It's difficult to understand how they fit into an early landing as I have come to know it. This grasshopper awaits enlightenment.

RJM

[Sharkbait]

An interesting situation at the start, with divergent priorities. Bash the Zulus / make peace with them, get the SSC going, start trade routes and EXPAND! And pick up some wonders!

I’m going to go with Arbela as SSC because there aren’t any other good locations obvious to me (although Cardiff would rock – maybe an expeditionary force over there? Nah).

Re the Zulus and trade, Zim demands (Dye), Copper & Wine, which isn’t much good for us. Athens however demands Dye, Hides & Spice and Arbela is a hides producer. In addition, with Arbela as the SSC I fear that to get a road bonus we’ll have to have bridge building, which makes Athens look even more appealing.

I see we’re about to discover Republic. I don’t think we’re anywhere near being ready to go to that government, so will likely put that on hold until somebody else comes along who is better judge of that (you may recall I started a thread on this very subject, so I’ll steer clear of making a fool of myself I think).

Not many cities are there – this will be a focus, but not to the exclusion of trade / van production for wonders.

So here’s what happened:

-550 (0) I really want to kill that Zulu legion, so I attack with 1 phalanx which loses but puts the legion into the red, then kill it with the other legion in Susa (and it becomes a vet).

Disband 1 warrior in Tarsus & start elephant. Another ele started in Canal (5 shields bought). I send a Canal warrior towards Susa

Settler from Persep heads west.

-525 (1) Republic discovered, start Mono. No revolution. Susa disorder – Elvis. Pasag coal van built, starts trireme. Warrior gets to Susa.

TSL set to 70/30/0 – this is in honour of Peaster, who in the Civ Fanatics GOTM 63 showed that his early conquest style adapts extremely well to early landing too. The extra gold and the ability to rush shields makes up for lost science especially when vans can also keep the science flowing. Besides, I want to RB some offensive defenders for Susa (those tuskers).

Canal city dye van goes to Pasag to board ship for Athens when ship is ready – aim to have Arbela hides on board too.

Meet Zulus – PEACE!!! Gift republic to them to get to receptive. Tarsus prod changed to settler.

500 (2) Not much. Zulus still hanging about Susa (phalanx, horse and warrior). Buy a few shields for ele in Canal.

Celts studying Sea Faring, Zulu Maths, French Republic, Aztec Construction, Greeks Masonry, Mongols Feudalism. Meet Aztecs and swap Republic for Masonry – I’d like some city walls in Susa as I don’t think the Zulus are done.

475 (3) Arbela hides van – starts another. Susa grows and blows up – Elvis. Ele completed in Canal.

Mongols capture Celt city of Armagh, get Writing. French get Pott from Greeks, who get Lit. Peace between them.

450(4) Ele goes to Susa, warrior heads back to Canal. Canal start settler.

Bactra founded at (56,8) on plains

425(5) Gift Philo to Zulus to get them back to receptive. Try for alliance and gift Poly but they want war v Aztecs, so no deal. At Cordial at least. RB some shields.

Aztecs go Republic.

400(6) Gordium makes settler – starts van. RB rest of Persep settler.

Zulu govt overthrown, French go Monarchy.

375(7) Persep settler – starts van. Trireme built in Pasag, starts settler. Ship heads to Athens with 2 vans. Phalanx done in Susa, starts city walls.

Zulu go Republic, French get Philo from Greeks, who get Masonry. Aztecs learn Construction.

350(8) Tarsus settler – another begun. Canal warrior – settler begun. Elvis fired.

325(9) Pasag settler changed to van. TSL to 30/70/0 to get science running again.

300(10) Nothing

275(11) Arbela makes hides van, starts Colossus. 4 vans next to Arbela used to build colossus. 2 vans land next to Athens, meet Greeks (hostile), give them Republic, they leave.

Greek government overthrown, so will wait for Republic before delivering the vans.

250(12) Arbela builds Colossus, starts library. Greeks now Republic.

225(13) Pasag blows up – Elvis. Will RB settler next turn.

Arbela hides to Athens (d) 184gold!. Will leave Canal Dye until next turn as tech done. Sadly the demand for Dye has gone after the delivery – now they want Silk, Hides & Wool. RB bits of city walls in Susa an RB library in Arbela (probably too soon to be worth doing but there you go – I done it now!).

200(14) Monotheism, The Wheel started (to swap with AI). Arbela library – van started. Sidon founded. Canal Dye to Athens (N) 52 gold.

Meet Greeks, gift Poly, but they’re not happy enough to trade and leave. Meet Mongols to try and get Wheel, but they demand war v Celts, then 50g tribute (get lost you yurt hugging, fermented mare’s milk breathed heathens!), so they declare war. Oh I’m so afraid!

Pasag prod changed to van and RB.

Mongols discover Feudalism, Zulus develop Maths (thank you!), French Republic.

-175(15) Bactra disorder – Elvis. Susa the same. Pasag makes beads van. Population now 500k.

Meet Greeks, gift 2 techs to Neutral, then swap Wheel for Currency. Celts learn Seafaring.

-150(16) Choose Maths to study. Arbela blows up – Elvis, prod changed to warrior. Persep silk van.

Visit Zulus, swap Wheel for Mathematics. Gift Pottery, swap maps.

Tarsus prod changed to van.

Mongols start Sun Tzu, Barbs land near Arbela!!!
Mongols and Celts swap techs, make peace. Aztecs learn Bridge Building and start Pyramids.

-125(17) Astronomy chosen as tech to study. Tyre founded – its first citizen is a red hat – so Elvis hired.

TSL to 70/30/0 to get some cash to fight off barbs. Horse in Arbela kills 1 barb archer. Other archer is left but it doesn’t approach Arbela – good!

-100(18) Phalanx RB in Arbela. Sardis founded – Elvis.

-75 (19) Not much. Barb still wandering with leader – would be nice to catch him.

-50(20) Gordium blows up – Elvis. Tarsus makes hides van. TSL 30/70/0 again. 2 vans land next to Athens. IRB shields in Persep.

Situation:

3 gold left, but the vans will deliver to Athens next turn. DELIVER THE SILK FIRST! Last time the hides demand stayed and the Dye disappeared, so try the Silk first and I think the hides is likely to stick again this time. And keep Arbela churning out he Hides whenever possible

We’re starting to get happiness issues with each new city, so a wonder (HG or Mikes) would be a good thing soon. I’d go for HG at this stage since it cheaper, and nobody is studying Mono at the moment so we’ve got a bit of time.

Next oedo year is 25BC, so the next player could revolt this turn and get the government change, but I still don’t think we’re quite ready (but I know nothing).

On the research front, we’ll get Astro soon so Copes will be available. I think there are quite a lot of wonders needed soon, so the next set of turns could involve accumulating vans and using them for trade or wonders.

The Zulus have 2 cities now, so in theory we could take Zimbabwe , but we don’t have the troops yet, and they seem happy enough with the occasional tech gift.

Here’s the save:

[Sharkbait]

Originally posted by rjmatsleepers


It's dangerous to comment without seeing the save, but elephants and libraries? It's difficult to understand how they fit into an early landing as I have come to know it. This grasshopper awaits enlightenment.

RJM

But an elephant never forgets - so put one in a library.....:
not to mention if the elephant is sitting in the SSC!

[rjmatsleepers]

Originally posted by Sharkbait


But an elephant never forgets - so put one in a library.....:

I've looked at the save now. A single library in our SSC is fine and a single elephant is not a major problem. It was the plural that was worrying me.

RJM

[Bloody Monk]

Excellent turnset, Sharkbait!!

Who wants to be next?? 10 turns.

Monk

[Bloody Monk]

Needs and Wants

1--Definitely agree with Sharkbait, build HG, Cope's, (in Arbela) and then Mike's Chapel. HG will take care of Happiness issues system wide, but more importantly, it will allow for celebration in SSC--which will enhance delivery bonuses, especially now that the 20th tech has removed the delivery bonus cap. Then Cope's should be built ASAP as it gives such a huge Science boost. And MC will set things up for Republic and system wide WeLove growth.

2--More boats. This is a trading game. I suggest the Western Peninsula cities.

3--Many more Settlers + trade for BridgeBuild tech. Lots of road work needed (connecting up the cities is more important than more cities at this point.) And the quicker the Setts are built the faster their cities will get to size three so they can participate in WeLove growth.

4--Remember the point about station city at [70,12]. Connect to SSC and instant Road Bonus is available to Zim. And just stop with the destroy Zim talk. Without a Palace, the corruption in Ulundi will not give anywhere near the same ongoing arrows. The commodity doesn't even need to be demanded to set the Road routes in place. (Read the EL Guide.)

5--Republic would go better if some work was done first. (See point 1) There are already two size 5 cities and a 4 so not much growth will happen before failing. Most other cities should be size 3 first. Failing that, we need to trade for Construction and build Aqua in SSC (and probably Per if enough Setts are available to mass irragate and road both cities). After Astronomy, get Medicine (for Shake's in SSC) then Sanitation (Sewer). The way this is developing, it looks like two or more stages, rather than one long High Lux period, will work better. Conscentration on the SSC growth is paramount.

6-- Keep in mind that all techs do not need to be researched to move along the tech tree. If an AI has both WarCode and Fuedalism and is building Chiv, wait until they finish Chiv and trade for Chiv (skippingthe earlier ones) and hold off on the pre-techs until later. This will keep ongoing tech costs down + it will set things up later for trades to grease the onpath choices when the bottlenecks happen. (Same idea often plays out with Construction w/o Masonry and Engineering w/o Wheel.

This is where MPE really pays for itself. If an AI has the earlier tech but has started a tech you already have, gift them that tech in hopes they will research the later tech for you...eg, they have Wheel and you want them to research Engineering. (Grab it as soon as they finish it before they decide to start building a WOW.)

Finally, study the part of solo's Guide that deals with the pattern of tech choices. You CAN know in advance what techs will be offered next. Especially where the advance is being finished after a delivery, there will often be enough beackers accumulated to do a trade with the AI for a needed tech and still complete the current research. Then the techs on offer will be the ones you want and, AND, a turn would be saved.

7-- The thing about building walls in Susa...Trade for Construction and build Aqua instead. Then, also from getting Construction, build a Fort [71,29] and put a vet there. This has many pluses, mainly that it will be an attractant that keeps the Zu off our tiles. Eventually, a wall of Forts will be needed to keep out Zu Dips.

8-- In general, you have to elevate an AI attitude to Enthusiasm or Worshipful to get an alliance. But, more to the point, it seldom happens that you get an alliance where you are Supreme. And the Ruleset for this game precludes accepting an AI offer of alliance with a "go to war" caveat.

This game is taking shape nicely. Take a look at the top 5 cities dropdown. Two are Aztec. They will be great trading partners!!

Monk