Would you like to play a game??

[Scouse Gits]

Edit: rather loses its impact after what is for me a page break :rats:

[rjmatsleepers]

There are lots of comments in the previous posts that I will think about overnight and respond to tomorrow (UK time). But one quick response and a question.

Elephant - the game rules allow but do not require the use of "hidden knowledge". I still feel uncomfortable with it.

The question is for all; if you don't like my "bizarre" choice of SSC what's your choice? I think Stu and Monk vote for Persepolis - is that agreed by everyone?

RJM

[Bloody Monk]

Not me. And I don't recall ever saying that.

I think you know my[often stated] preference for down list SSC sites. Yours is as good as any at this point and Susa [with the Silk tiles uncovered] is good too. Whatever, we need more cities.

Monk

[Elephant]

Originally posted by Bloody Monk

--Hoping to bag a King you lost a chariot.

My fault - I'll take the bullet on that one...

RE: SSC - if Persep gets HG I think I'd go there too, and try to research Sea and Bri soon. If we change Persep to MPE I'd consider Susa or City#4. I'm a little down on Susa right now because of remoteness from the Capital and Zulu attitude, but those things can be fixed in time. Susa has lots of wonderful grass and three higher-trade specials.

Who's next?

[atomant]

I am going to rule myself out of the game at this stage as I am playing MGE. Next time round though. I will still ffer criticism, comments and critically cryptic codes throughout the course of this game

[Bloody Monk]

That's a shame because we could use another good player and you earlier said any version would be fine with you. If you finish up your MGE game, feel free to jump in.

Monk

[Straybow]

Mountain barb trap pretty much requires a 2-defense unit. Chariots are for offense—the strongest attacker of the early game.

But let's not beat the dead chariot horses...

I'm curious though, if intending Arbela to be SSC, why found it on the only non-river tile?

[rjmatsleepers]

Originally posted by Bloody Monk
Not me. And I don't recall ever saying that.

I think you know my[often stated] preference for down list SSC sites. Yours is as good as any at this point and Susa [with the Silk tiles uncovered] is good too. Whatever, we need more cities.

Monk

Sorry Monk. I remember now, what you said was that you used the Persepolois site as an SSC, but in your game it was not the initial city.

Susa with the silk uncovered would be a good SSC site (and better than Arbela). My concern about Susa is that it shares a tile with Zimbabwe. As Stu has pointed out, the Zulus will attack us and probably repeatedly. During these wars we will probably lose access to quite a few of Susa's tiles, which will cost us many beakers. I couldn't figure out whether this periodic loss of access to tiles outweighed Susa's advantages. I took the view that I didn't want my SSC in a battle zone.

Anyway, let me explain my bizarre choice in full detail. Since so many experienced players don't agree with me, there may be a fault in my logic. If so, my bags are packed for a long visit to the Institute.

1. The more beakers a fully developed SSC site produces, the better it is.

2. The beakers produced by an SSC come from its trade arrows and its specialists.

3. The number of specialists an SSC can support depends on its food surplus - how much food it produces in excess of 2 per citizen.

4. The effect of wonders and buildings is better in Arbela than Persepolis. (In most cases, the effect will be the same, but Superhighways will give a greater benefit in Arbela than Persepolis because Susa will have more roads.)

5. The arrows from trade will be no higher in Persepolis than Arbela. (This is the part of the logic that I'm a bit unsure about. I assume the connectivity bonuses will be the same for both, but there may be a reason why one is better than the other.)

6. Thus, Persepolis and Arbela can be compared as SSC sites by comparing the trade arrows and food surplus they will produce.

7. Persepolis will produce 10 trade arrows from the rivered grassland; 9 arrows from the plains; 8 from the ocean and 4 from the fish for a total of 29.

8. Arbela will produce 18 trade arrows from the rivered grassland; 2 arrows from grassland; 10 from rivered plains; 3 from plains and 2 from the rivered forest once converted to plains. This gives a total of 35.

(Straybow asked why Arbela is founded on a non-rivered tile. AFAIK, there is no long term benefit in trade arrows from using a rivered site. There is a short term benefit in getting a second arrow straight away and there is a defense bonus, but in the long run it's the total number of arrows in the city radius that matters.)

9. Persepolis has a food surplus of 9 - 5 from grassland and 4 from fish - (assuming the special is irrigated rather than mined). This will give it 4 or 5 scientists. Arbella also has a food surplus of 9 - once again assuming the hills are irrigated.

10. I conclude that as an SSC, Arbella will produce significantly more beakers than Persepolis.

If there is a fault in this logic, I can't see where it is, but no doubt someone will point it out in the accepted robust style.

I'll come back in a while and respond to the various other comments.

RJM

[rjmatsleepers]

Let me respond to some of the other comments that have been made.

I believe harbours only increase food from ocean tiles, not trade arrows. An ordinary ocean tile with a harbour produces the same food and commerce as an irrigated, rivered plain with a road. I don't think there is much benefit in a coastal location for an SSC. The one advantage in the early years is the greater van delivery payoff obtained by switching to ocean tiles but I'm having difficulty convincing myself that this compensates for fewer long term trade arrows.

I like to start developing my SSC site as quickly as possible. We need to have nearly everything in place for the start of celebration. Normally I would build the roads first, then irrigate, then chop down the trees. In this case we have to wait for bridge building before building the roads, so I started irrigation. Would it be better to found a city instead? Well, the settler is still there, so the next player can do that if they prefer.

As far as building a city to pick up the whale north west of Arbela is concerned, I agree with some other comments. If I had been the starting player, I would have built my capital there. But as an SSC site, it seemed to me (for the reasons given above) that Arbela's location was better.

On the subject of numbers of cities, I would normally want 4 or 5 cities at the point where I started developing my SSC. I would use the settlers developing the SSC to build more cities later. I'm aware of the discovery that an early landing can be achieved by building a large number of cities, but I have no experience with this approach. I expect it needs a variation in style - for example, presumably the HG becomes more valuable. I thought it was better to stick with what I knew.

I'm not sure there is a large benefit in building the HG in our SSC. It will certainly make celebration easier, but with Shakes, a market and 3 trade routes, I've never had any trouble getting my SSC to celebrate. Of course it will enable the SSC to celebrate in Monarchy, but it's relatively easy to do that anyway.

Monk, I'm not sure what your opinion of Arbela as an SSC site is. In one post you agree with Stu's comment that it is bizarre, in another you accept my invitation to "shoot me". but in a third you say it is as good an SSC site as any. Clearly you are right that Arbela "hogs the space" in the river system north east of Persepolis, - its location is deliberately chosen to maximise the number of rivered tiles within its radius. But there seems to be plenty of space both east of Persepolis and also south west of Susa to build more cities with growth potential.

One final comment. Nobody has raised this, but what difference does it make that we are allowed to re-home vans? I'm assuming this doesn't change the choice of SSC, but perhaps there is a trick here that I'm missing.

I'll rest the case for the defense at this point.

RJM

[Bloody Monk]

Producing More Beakers Not the Point

Originally posted by rjmatsleepers

10. I conclude that as an SSC, Arbella will produce significantly more beakers than Persepolis.

If there is a fault in this logic, I can't see where it is, but no doubt someone will point it out in the accepted robust style.

RJM

Thanks for the thoughtful and well written response. I don't have any big objections to your logic. But I do disagree with some of the assumptions the logic is based on. Specifically, I think the focus is too narrow.

If we were playing OCC, finding a site that produces the most beakers would be a valid decision filter, but here, we need to balance beakers with the need for more cities, port cities, and placement that allows for multiple cities to grow to size 8, eventually to 12. Put another way, it's not just "the total number of arrows in the city radius" but the total number of arrows, from all cities, that can be squeezed from a given area. The SSC has to be on a "good" site, good enough to generate, along with other cities and trade, one or two advances per turn in the post Freight phase of the game. But the best possible site it doesn't have to be, especially if it limits other choices and needs so much. Without being on the coast it can't build any boats AND [this might be very important] it can't be the support base for the trading fleet, delaying Democracy until Galleons are available. The only time I can see having a landlocked SSC is if it would have multiple trade specials. Nobody would argue with a Gold, 2 Silk, and a Wine.

There is also the comment about building on plains rather than getting an extra arrow--now--by building on one of the river tiles. In this early part of the game it is very important to churn out the cities so that advances can come more quickly. One arrow is more than just one arrow at this stage. The same thinking militates against irrigating...build more cities.

All that said, once the site is chosen and the city laid down, it is a site that can be worked with...for all the reasons you list. So there should be no confusion on your part as to different comments from me. The two postions you puzzle over are about separate contexts. I think a better choice for the site was available, but now that it is a fact of life, it can be developed as the SSC. Okay??

As to your [and others] assumptions about Susa, it doesn't have to be a huge source of conflict w/ the Z's. If you build more cities, you will get advances faster than them, especially after trading starts, and therefore, always be in a position to gift them something and...ibid.

And a minor nit, your food comparison doesn't give Per credit for a harbor. Also, in point 3, food routes can be used to increase the size as well. As to number of cities, the sooner you lay them down the sooner they will be size3 and be ready to celebrate up. There will be time to irrigate around the SSC later.

As for going to the Institute...Since you gave this so much thought I'm inclined to leave that up to you. If you choose to go, I point you to solo's EL Guide, especially the latter parts with emphasis on variations to the lean style emphasized in the main Guide.

Now, back to the Game. Why is there a Zu-Settler in our city space and why is the Zu attitude still Uncooperative?? Whoever goes next needs to give them something, see about any trades we might need, and demand Tribute...this last will cause them to teleport that Settler back to Zululand.

Who's next??
Monk

[Scouse Gits]

Unless I'm mistaken - Oh no it won't! (teleport the Settler) Settlers are not military units and are immune to such aren't they?

Stu

[Bloody Monk]

Maybe you are thinking of Diplomats??

I think "Remove Troops" also works, but I'm sure "Demand Tribute" does.

Monk

[rjmatsleepers]

Originally posted by Bloody Monk
Maybe you are thinking of Diplomats??

I think "Remove Troops" also works, but I'm sure "Demand Tribute" does.

Monk

It certainly did when I tried it!

RJM

[dunnm]

Any objections if I picked up the baton and played over the weekend?

I have looked at the save and here is my game plan:

1. Build RJM’s canal city
2. Use RJM’s SSD as the SSC
3. Continue with MPE
4. On completion of MPE use limited diplomacy to ensure first to Phil. picking up any techs towards Mono (and their maps if possible). After Phil gift/trade techs for maps.
5. Expand
6. Stockpile caravans to give HG&Col in SSC leaving options open in case AI threatens to complete.
7. Should I build relationships with Z and attempt a Caravan (SSC) delivery or is too early/risky?

WARNING: I have never played early landing game – my only spaceships are in OCC games. I have however been reading Solo’s guide.

Comments / suggestions ?

[rjmatsleepers]

Go for it dunmn. Your plan sounds good to me.

RJM