Would you like to play a game??

[rjmatsleepers]

OK guys, I've picked up the save and will play during the day. I expect to post the results around this time tomorrow.

RJM

[rjmatsleepers]

I couldn't resist the temptation to play, so here it is.

As I look at the save, I feel as if I have fallen down a rabbit hole and found myself in wonderland - things are not what I expected they would be. First Stu starts building a wonder rather than a settler, then Elephant chooses pottery instead of currency. It's all very odd. Oh well, I'm not going to learn trade or complete the Colossus in my turn set so someone else can sort it out. The key decisions seem to be where to build the next city and where to locate our SSC - no doubt these decisions are related. Susa (which I renamed by the way) has a lot of grassland plus a whale. I seem to recollect the tribal elders talking about "hidden specials". If there is silk, that would be good - but I turn my back on such forbidden knowledge. The downside as an SSC site is the mountain and the shared tile with Zimbabwe which will be a bone of contention for a long while. Persepolis is an SSC possibility and it does have 3 rivered tiles as well as 2 food specials, but it has no trade specials, one hill, very little grassland and it is the first city established which is a disadvantage as an SSC. Pasargadae's only advantage over Persepolis is that it was established later. How about a new city in the north east. A site on the plains in the middle of the rivers would pick up 15 rivered tiles (ie 15 extra commerce); it would have 1 hill, no specials and far less grassland than Susa. The rivered grassland 1 tile further north would pick up the whale, but it has 2 more hills, a tundra and less rivers. The irrevocable choice between Susa and the plains site can be put of for a while, but if Susa is to be our SSC, the next city should pick up that whale. IIRC, Susa will not be able to build a harbour so those water tiles will only ever produce 1 food and no more commerce than the rivered plains once we can build a road. OK, those rivers are too tempting. My vote goes for the SSC on the plains among the rivers - so shoot me if you disagree.

2000 BC Settler moves into position.
1950 BC Arbela - science city designate founded. The horseman will protect it and it only has a food surplus of 2 so I begin work on a temple.
1900 BC Send Pasagardae's warrior to support martial law in Persepolis and begin work on a Settler. Discover Pottery and begin researching Currency.
1850 BC Susa completes a settler and starts another. With Persepolis working both fish tiles, Currency will only take 7 turns, but I fear that we will not be offered trade.
1800 BC Warrior reaches Persepolis in time to allow it to grow.
1750 BC The archer and the barbarian leader start to move towards our chariot. Despite the reward for the leader, I'm always a bit nervous about allowing the barbs to attack me.
1700 BC Zulu archer attacks and kills our horseman outside Susa. (We are supreme and spotless; the Zs are uncooperative) I decide to switch to building a second phalanx in Susa since I don't want to move our chariot yet. A barb galley lands two archers which the Zs obligingly destroy.
1650 BC Susa is threatened by 2 warriors and in 1 more turn 2 archers!
1600 BC Good and bad news. Our chariot fortified on a mountain lost to a barb archer - I would have been better moving it to Susa. Our phalanx survived attacks by the 2 Z warriors and is now a vet, but they fortified their archers which are now not in position to attack next turn.
1550 BC One Z arche.r moves in position to attack Susa which is now defended by 2 phalanxs - one vet and fortified. We discover currency and begin researching trade (8 turns away). We survive the attack by the first Z archer; second Z archer moves to attack supported by Z phalanx.
1500 BC Await the next wave of attacks. Zs are now enraged and refuse to talk. We survive attack by archer, but Z phalanx just sits there.
1450 BC The very wounded barb archer continues to wander about heading roughly for Pasagardae. A Z warrior takes position outside Susa and a couple of Z settlers move into range.
1400 BC I resist the temptation to have a pop at the Z settlers. I agree a cease fire, and then a peace treaty. I demand tribute and they withdraw their forces. I switch Susa from a 3rd phalanx to a settler.
1350 BC Pasagardae completes a settler which I move towards Arbela to begin irrigation. I start the warrior that Persepolis will need shortly.
1300 BC Zulu forces reappear around Susa - I have a sense of deja vu all over again. The wounded barb archer wanders around without coming into range.
1250 BC I eliminate Persepolis' food surplus to prevent it growing into disorder next turn.
1200 BC "red zone" barb archer moves into range of Pasagardae. I think if I let it attack, my warrior will win and then my horseman from Arbela can swoop down and capture the leader - I think! Warrior did survive and is now a vet. Leader legged it, but I think I will catch him. Discover trade, start researching writing.
1150 BC switch to MPE in Persepolis. Start pursuit of barb leader.
1100 BC try to trap barb leader with my settler while pursuing with horsie. Start van in Arbela.
1050 BC Capture barb leader. We have 248 gold to use for rushing vans, so I start to do so. I leave the settler with a move available to my succesor, in case he wants to buid a canal city.

RJM

[fed1943]

Until now, I just played single (solitary) Civ2.
As I guess it, single democracy shall be the same game on my computer and a much richer one in my mind, so I want it very much; with sucession, I keep playing alone and less game on my computer, so not interested in playing, but still interested read it.
Please, feel interely free to delete this post. If you decide and do it, no hard feelings.
Best regards,

[Scouse Gits]

Welcome fed - why should we wish to delete your post? If you have Civ2 v2.42 feel free to join us, if not, perhaps our next Succession Game will be MGE based.

Stu

[Scouse Gits]

RJM - it appears that we are all playing different games - oh the joy of Succession Games!

To me, your choice of 4th city site is bizarre, but I know nothing of the arcane art of EL!

I was tempted to snatch the game as I read your log and allow my 'inner Dalek' to run rampant over the Accursed Trespassers, but you declared Peace - so I shall have to refrain - bet they sneak attack again

Stu

[Scouse Gits]

A general question:

To me the Hanging Gardens are a sine qua non of a robust Monarchy, which I view as a vital precursor of a viable representative government. I thought that this was part of the accepted EL ethos, am I wrong? ... and if so where?

Stu

[rjmatsleepers]

Originally posted by Scouse Gits
A general question:

To me the Hanging Gardens are a sine qua non of a robust Monarchy, which I view as a vital precursor of a viable representative government. I thought that this was part of the accepted EL ethos, am I wrong? ... and if so where?

Stu

Dunno - you got me there gov!

But I certainly prefer MPE to HG as my first wonder - it gives the opportunity to trade techs and direct the AI's research path. Anyway, if the next player prefers HG it is easy enough to switch back.

As far as my choice of 4th city site is concerned, the problem in my eyes was that we didn't have a good SSC site (and Arbela cerainly isn't a good SSC site either). But for the reasons I gave in my intro, it seemed to me better than any of the other possibilities. We are not yet committed to it. However, it won't be many turns before we have 4 vans, at which point we will have to make up our minds.

Of course I may be wrong and there is a much better SSC site that I didn't spot. If so we can still use it. In which case, the location of Arbela becomes "bizarre", but not a major problem.

RJM

[rjmatsleepers]

Originally posted by Scouse Gits
I was tempted to snatch the game as I read your log and allow my 'inner Dalek' to run rampant over the Accursed Trespassers, but you declared Peace - so I shall have to refrain - bet they sneak attack again

Stu

That's not a bet I will take - you'll win it far too easily. I'm pretty sure at some stage we will unleash you on the Zulus. But we will have to give you some strict rules of engagement. Assuming they have built a second city, we may need to think about taking out Zimbabwe.

RJM

[Elephant]

Originally posted by rjmatsleepers
As I look at the save, I feel as if I have fallen down a rabbit hole and found myself in wonderland - things are not what I expected they would be. First Stu starts building a wonder rather than a settler, then Elephant chooses pottery instead of currency. It's all very odd.

Agreed - I was unsure of the certainty of our "EL" goal (Early 'Limination?), and the progress in Persep was too far along to switch. Pottery was for HG (SG's "Floral Extraveganza"), which I thought might be needed before we could get to Trade due to the early start. Colossus was the placeholder.

Susa (which I renamed by the way) has a lot of grassland plus a whale. I seem to recollect the tribal elders talking about "hidden specials". If there is silk, that would be good - but I turn my back on such forbidden knowledge.

Now you're not reading the game rules - no "forbidden knowledge" except cheating a peek at the map. HutFinder or a little map analysis shows there are two hidden specials, both Whales, so they can be mined to Silk.

Persepolis is an SSC possibility and it does have 3 rivered tiles as well as 2 food specials, but it has no trade specials, one hill, very little grassland and it is the first city established which is a disadvantage as an SSC. Pasargadae's only advantage over Persepolis is that it was established later.

Pers and Pas are both on the coast, so once we discover Sea we could build Harbors and gain more watery trade arrows. They each have three specials, but Coal is not real useful for an SSC/STC until Engineers come around.

My vote goes for the SSC on the plains among the rivers - so shoot me if you disagree.

CFC has some nice machine-gun smilies. Best I can do here is ...

1600 BC Good and bad news. Our chariot fortified on a mountain lost to a barb archer - I would have been better moving it to Susa.

Luck of the roll? I thought a fortified Chariot on Mountain would have better odds against an Archer. Might there be a Deity attack bonus for Barbs, or a vet status?

1500 BC Zs are now enraged and refuse to talk. We survive attack by archer, but Z phalanx just sits there.

SG wanted tribute, but might have better if we left them alone. Then again, they gave us Bronze and the 50g to build the first Phalanx...

1350 BC Pasagardae completes a settler which I move towards Arbela to begin irrigation.

Only four cities down and we are already beginning irrigation?

1200 BC "red zone" barb archer moves into range of Pasagardae. I think if I let it attack, my warrior will win and then my horseman from Arbela can swoop down and capture the leader - I think!

Life on the edge - killing the Chariot might have gotten him Vet status, if he didn't have it already...

[Elephant]

Originally posted by Scouse Gits
A general question:

To me the Hanging Gardens are a sine qua non of a robust Monarchy, which I view as a vital precursor of a viable representative government. I thought that this was part of the accepted EL ethos, am I wrong? ... and if so where?

Stu

Different players, different styles - ST might even put Pyramids above HG, but I doubt you'll find Solo agreeing with you, and he wrote the EL Guide. My preference is MPE first, particularly for OCC, but I couldn't tell if we would have Trade before Persep finished. Also, if you are building an SSC you really want HG in it so the extra happies get you extra trade in Monarchy. Next player gets to decide...

[Bloody Monk]

Re: flotsam, jetsam, and kibitzam

Originally posted by Straybow

When I first opened SG's 3000 save I wondered if we had really settled the issue of game goal. I admit two 3-special spots were nice, but they are sharing two of the specials so one can only grow at the expense of the other, and furthermore all of the specials are Fish-type. Not a lot of good trade from them, unless you get lucky with Gold. A better plan would have been to use the Whale to start a city in the river system that had as much rivered grass as possible, and work toward early Bridges.

Besides, at [68,16] Pas could've been a two special canal

[66,22] makes a good canal and a staging city for trade routes from the river network cities to Zim.

If by using the whale you mean building at [70,6], I completely agree. That is in fact where I founded my Capital. And contrary to the assertions of RJM that 3 hills and a tundra disqualify it, at the end of the game it was producing 146 arrows per turn. The mined hills made it a powerful shield producer as well.

Sg[1]'s Capital was my SSC, fifth on the build list. And while fish aren't great, this city also produced 146 arrows per turn at the end. It just requires a heavy dose of Settler work, irrigating and roading all those plains.

Btw, both those cities got 81 trade arrows a turn from the RR bonus to Zim. The SSC was even higher before the Colosses fell. So, maybe it is a case of forward vision. Both those city sites hold great possibility.

While I cannot greatly disagree with your canal site for Pas at [68,16], my thinking was to build in as many cities as possible [that could grow to at least size 8] in the nearby area to keep corruption loss down in the early game. Building it where it sits allows for more cities.

Your suggestion for a canal city [68,22] also follows my thinking. Just chop down the trees first. We are going to need many port cities so it's good on that account too.

I missed your usual screenshot with pink and yellow highlighted tiles.

Monk

[Scouse Gits]

Don't all bad guys (including Barbs) get a 12.5% bonus at Deity?

Stu

[Bloody Monk]

Originally posted by Scouse Gits
RJM - it appears that we are all playing different games - oh the joy of Succession Games!

You can say that again!!

To me, your choice of 4th city site is bizarre, but I know nothing of the arcane art of EL!

I know a bit and all I can say is ditto. My response to Straybow, #86, gives some detail.

I was tempted to snatch the game as I read your log and allow my 'inner Dalek' to run rampant over the Accursed Trespassers, but you declared Peace - so I shall have to refrain - bet they sneak attack again

Stu

I've mentioned this before, but it is vital to keep a nearby AI happy. When their attitude drops gift them something. We have played many games where if we are Supreme and keep them at least Receptive, the AI will not enter a flagless city. You don't need garrison if you keep them happy [applies more to Republic situations] Cover the approaches, keep them happy and they won't sneak attack...with v2.42 anyway.

Monk

[Bloody Monk]

Originally posted by Scouse Gits
A general question:

To me the Hanging Gardens are a sine qua non of a robust Monarchy, which I view as a vital precursor of a viable representative government. I thought that this was part of the accepted EL ethos, am I wrong? ... and if so where?

Stu

In its first iterations, HG was THE preferred WOW. But, solo eventually came around to the benifits [mainly maps and directing AI research] of building MPE first. Then HG soon after. With camels available this could be very soon, virtually back to back.

This calls into question the early setting of a city building a WOW. In the early game getting to Monarchy soonest means building Settlers for more cities; Trade [for camels] as the 2nd research goal; and building WOW with camels. Also, by quickly getting MPE, much time researching can be avoided depending what the AI started with and what they subsequently researched.

Perhaps a quick re-reading of the Early Landing Guide, topped in the Strategy Forum, would be useful.

Monk

[Bloody Monk]

@ fed1943,

Ditto to SG[1]'s invitation. If you have the correct game version, take a turn. There is no better way to learn new things than by playing and defending your thinking. If you can not play feel free to jump in with questions and comments.

@RJM,

I was going to say pretty much what Ele said, but there is more.

--see post #86, comment to Straybow on site choices. [70,6] cried out for two additional reasons. It is grass and on the coast so it will be able to better support Settler and Boats.

--Your assertion that Susa won't be able to build Harbor is not correct. Does this alter your thinking??

--As for the 'forbidden knowledge' crack, one word: Ludite!!

--Hoping to bag a King you lost a chariot. May have been better to kill them and get over to Susa for defense. And remember to Gift the AI out of Uncooperative Attitude. Bagging a King is gravy but defending our cities is a main sequence goal.

--We need more cities!!

--

My vote goes for the SSC on the plains among the rivers - so shoot me if you disagree.

Building on the coast leaves room for another size 8+ city whereas your site hogs all the space, with no room for another 'big' city.

So, BANG!!

Enough of the RCC. Just something to think [re-think] about. We all have different takes on things and that's not a bad thing at all.

The game marches on and we can make this work. Who wants to be next??

Monk [image for illustrative purposes only]