Ancient Empires #2

[Palaiologos]

indeed

[Peaster]

Egyptian defenses are also holding up well. A new Ladder Tower defeats a 3rd barb ram, and an Early Chariot joins the defense.

[RobRoy]

hmmm...ST!?

You there?

24 hours plus and counting...

Anyone care to move for him? He implied some RL issues were distracting him in the other thread. I can do it if no one else is interested. Guess I'll give it another half day to see if anyone else volunteers or if he resurfaces.

I'm assuming it's still perceived as more desirable to do a turn for someone rather than a CTRL-N?

I'll post something early tomorrow if he's still out of touch and no one has jumped in to move for him.

[Addled Platypus]

expect delays here too (nothing major)

overtime at work for rest of the week

I will take OT if offered again next week

[SlowThinker]

Sorry, was busy.

Sparta still holds.

[RobRoy]

Minoans: Performed a slave raid. Finally found an unpopped hut in the Libyan desert = a merc. Running away from some barbs in the northwest. Wondering whether simply to surrender Macedonia?

Hittites: still see two lonely Bronze Infantry who won't disappear with their comrades. Conducted one slave raid, popped two huts for techs...continued sharing techs with Egyptians and Assyrians.

Peaster, Pal, I'm just using the F3 screen to trade/give techs. Please go ahead and gift/trade 'em with Minoans and Babs. I'm assuming that's okay. But let me know if/when we get to a point where you don't want that to happen. Plus I found mapmaking tech...do we want to trade maps too? Might help us avoid chasing goody huts that have already been popped...

Plat, you're up.

[Peaster]

RobRoy - The F3 screen is OK. AFAIK this game is still just a test, so almost anything you want to do is OK with me. BTW - is there anything else we want to check out ? Maybe civ2dip, or a Ctrl-N ?

I certainly don't mind playing on a while, but my curiosity about the 1st Egyptian horde is satisfied. IMO it is no longer a threat (thanks in part to the quick tech trades).

[RobRoy]

Originally posted by Peaster
RobRoy - The F3 screen is OK. AFAIK this game is still just a test, so almost anything you want to do is OK with me. BTW - is there anything else we want to check out ? Maybe civ2dip, or a Ctrl-N ?

I certainly don't mind playing on a while, but my curiosity about the 1st Egyptian horde is satisfied. IMO it is no longer a threat (thanks in part to the quick tech trades).

Yah, I just don't want to be doing too much that people might be hesitant to do in a "real" game. The think the hordes are generally problematic but manageable. I'm still curious as to whether people who've built cities "early" will regret it or not. So I'd like to see how hordes spend themselves or whether they'll all end up vanishing like mine. I'm also curious if pirates will become more than a nuisance...the Minoans have seen them most turns, but they just don't do much.

The tech sharing might be making us a bit too strong, but a lot of that is goody hut serendipity. I'm kinda glad ST is testing his ability to defend without Chariots and Ladder Towers and Spearmen. Sounds like the Greeks are having trouble. Maybe the Babs, too.

So besides seeing how hordes play out, one other question was whether Civ2Dip was viable/useful/desirable in a .hot game and whether it introduced anomalies. So, yes, if you want to arrange some things with the Hittites and Minoans (nothing foolish, mind), go ahead. Personally, I'm still prejudiced against outside tools or introducing additional features, since most everything I can imagine doing could be replicated via the F3 screen, I think, except city trading, which could still be engineered on-map.

We just discovered Land Trade, so we can see what, if any, trade exploits/strategies really need to be banned. For example, do we really want to prohibit caravan rehoming if it just encourages people to set up Hide-producing cities in bizarre locations? Or rewards micro-managing supply/demand slots?

Anyway, I'm still having a bit of fun with the game, and would like to continue it. The barb component puts some serious combat back into a scenario that could easily become focused on diplomacy and trade. And since we are still at least one player short of a full seven (more if Straybow or ST remain ambivalent), starting a "real" game isn't really an option, just yet.

I'm also curious about people's opinions on the relative strengths of the Civs, for when we select or bid on civs in a "real" game. People less experienced with the scenario should get some preferences, perhaps. And I think the core four (Hittites, Assyrian, Babylon, and Egypt) with their access to each other and goodie huts are still easier/stronger, despite their increased vulnerability to barbs. I think the Minoans and Greeks, despite some insulation from barbs (tell that to the Greeks) are severely hampered by limited access to goodie huts and the need to build boats (Minoans especially, but they have that extra city) . And correct me if I'm wrong, but Persia is mostly about disadvantages: the "corner" position is not really helpful against barbs, but manages to hinder goodie hut access a bit; their huts will never be techs; their terrain is still mediocre; when they do finally get to trade, they get a penalty; and their unique access to Central Asia is less meaningful in an environment where barb cities are likely to be more common.

[Peaster]

I guess caravan rehoming is usually forbidden because it makes trade so easy. Trade is already very powerful in this scen, partly because the main alternative (growth) is slow. So, I expect this would change the game a lot, with civs racing for big STC's and long roads. Probably a plus to Minos and a minus to Persia.

Interesting analysis of the civs. The central civs (Hit + Assy) have an advantage in Game #2 from early contacts, etc, but they are also more exposed in case of a world war. I agree with you about Persia, but it is still interesting to play, and has good terrain for defense. Just guessing, but IMO Minos has great potential in a trade-based game. I guess Egypt, Assyria and Babylon have the best terrain for growth.

But any civ is playable, and the results will depend a lot on alliances, wars and luck with barbs.

[RobRoy]

Originally posted by Peaster
I guess caravan rehoming is usually forbidden because it makes trade so easy. Trade is already very powerful in this scen...

"Easy" and "Powerful". Good choice of words. I submit that all caravan rehoming does is make things easier. I do not think it makes it significantly more powerful. People will simply build their "trade" cities around unexhaustable resources like Hides and/or spend tortorous amounts of time managing supply/demand to free up slots. They'll defer or avoid techs that make them lose Hides, or otherwise decrease their trade return. The spacing and location of cities will be artificial and awkward. Trade can be made to be just as powerful, but at a huge cost in RL time and fun (IMHO). Plus without rehoming, you're more vulnerable to some squirrely "exploits" from competitors to use up one of your supply slots. Caravan rehoming has some costs, anyway, you sacrifice the ongoing bonus.

Originally posted by Peaster
...IMO Minos has great potential in a trade-based game....

Yes, they'll benefit most from the two-continent bonus. Of course others can trade with them, fairly easily, so the Greeks, Egyptians, and Hittites can also benefit from the bonus (albeit less easily). Persians and Assyrians can look to Central Asia. Babs have an island in the south if they can't get to the Med or Caspian.

Of course some of that depends on house rules. Ban ship-chaining and you'll cripple the Minoans. Plus they'll suffer more from a ban on re-homing caravans since they have fewer city site options and can't just relocate cities to sites that are likely to produce Hides, like the continentals can (Greeks options are greater, but space is also limited).

But yes, certainly any civ is playable. And goodie hut luck or barb appearance or neighbor friendliness/trustworthyness will be far more important than starting position, IMHO. I just think people who haven't memorized the map might enjoy the central four more, since each of the other three (Persian, Greeks, Minoan) offer slightly more challenge and/or complexities), even under Barbarian Wrath, which I'd originally thought would change that equation.

Platy?! You working? Pal, perhaps you could go for him if he's not able to by tonight? I'm out Saturday-Sunday, again. If my turn comes around, ST and/or Plat can feel free to do or Ctrl-N my turn, otherwise I can do it Sunday evening. Hope we're not slowing down what had been a pretty fast game.

[SlowThinker]

Yes, trade is TOO powerful. Caravans are freights + very fast movement ...
Caravan rehoming - I think it is possible, altough the game is different then.

And yes, I think the Minoan starting position (with trade possibilities) is best. Central Asia doesn't balance that, because Persia needs build roads there and make deals with Assyrians and/or Babylonians. Babs have an island near capital, but this is only one city and demand is depleted soon. Hittites can build several cities on Cyprus and attract Assyrian vans but this is slow too. Bab+Egyptian 'far' private islands can attract Assyrian vans but sites are hardly accessible again. People can do some (expensive) tricks with continental cities and get good trade centers there, but again it is slow.
Minoans could start their trade much earlier in Seeds #1 game. Crete can have several cities of size 4 very early and make big trade 20 turns before other regions can do.

IMO Minoans have a good access to huts. They can choose Greece, Anatolia, Libya. In the beginning they can't choose all three simultaneously but if they choose Greece then Greek hut hunting has finished (this happened in our game, most of slaves and huts were popped by Minoans).
Minoans have another big advantage: it looks they needn't fear of barb land hordes (?).

But I agree the game depends on luck a lot.

>I just think people who haven't memorized the map might enjoy the central four more

In order not to give an advantage to experienced players we have a rule that you can reveal starting map / cheat starting map / play SP games during the PBEM.

[Palaiologos]

Terribly sorry dudes.

RL got the better of me. Just got a new job and forced to move to Athens.

No civ2 or PC here i am afraid. Have to drop out.

Really sorry.

[Addled Platypus]

even though I check "receive update to thread"

I always dont get them.

Cant beleive I missed two days, sorry

[Addled Platypus]

Two more precious cities of my "Empire" should fall to the hands of the red menace. The third one is under a smaller threat.

Spent half the treasuary buying a "defense"....right

http://apolyton.net/upload/view.php?file=22570_ha_b3290.hot

[Peaster]

Pal - Sorry to hear that. But you can't quit civ2 forever, and we will still be here when you return.

Meanwhile, maybe I should play the Assyrians.