Lizzy's rise to greatness

[mzprox]

If it's a second city then it's 3*3, no matter which direction we take. If it's a capital they will see us quite early anyway and we wouldn't have a chance against their quecha.

[[Even if we move SE there is good chance that they won't see us and we won't make contact yet (they must have a hill at their border to see two tiles far) ]] edit: I took a closer look, and it seems they have a forested plainhill at their borders so we will make contact if we move further
If they have pottery that would mean 3-4 extra science for our current research (not per turn, altogether), not significant but more than nothing. i'm thinking to set our research 0 for now to get the most possible benefit. Nevertheless they will benefit a bit more from our contact, but at least we wouldn't waste our espionage points anymore (that's the most significant benefit imho).
then we can try to make some good border deal.

So I say let's go for the contact and approach them as close as we can.

[DNK]

I'm not saying to attack them, just to be sighted first coming from the south so they think that's where we're coming from. Then they'll send scouts south if they haven't already to find us if that's what they want.

That said, my original impression was that they weren't a huge military threat and were way more focused on REXing and economy. I think the quecha is just icing on top for getting the UB and a deterrent for anyone else, but we don't have much to go on.

[mzprox]

I'm not saying to attack them, just to be sighted first coming from the south so they think that's where we're coming from. Then they'll send scouts south if they haven't already to find us if that's what they want.

That said, my original impression was that they weren't a huge military threat and were way more focused on REXing and economy. I think the quecha is just icing on top for getting the UB and a deterrent for anyone else, but we don't have much to go on.

It's a good idea to try to make them believe that we came from the south, but Not sure it's worth it. If my theory is right they have pottery already so we could get some science bonus to our current research and we could start spening our espionage points instead of wasting them. if we move SE they still won't know if we came from NW or SW

[Calanthian]

Maybe a good idea to throw them off:

Move SE, SE. Make sure they can't go in between these two turns..
then we are at their border and can start negotiations.

And they really have no idea where we came from.

(so next turn: log in "late" in the turn, turn after log in "early")

[mzprox]

Maybe a good idea to throw them off:

Move SE, SE. Make sure they can't go in between these two turns..
then we are at their border and can start negotiations.

And they really have no idea where we came from.

(so next turn: log in "late" in the turn, turn after log in "early")

Will do that, tough they are usually late to finish their turns.

[Hercules]

Agree to that and watch out for barbs.

[Robert]

We have an advantage, we know where they are, they don't know about us yet.
Why not plant the horse city, build/chop a couple of horse (2 or 3) and attack them.
We'll have a very big advantage in the game b/c we weakened our neighbour a lot which gives us more room for expansion and less fear for our neighbor.

[Calanthian]

Will do that, tough they are usually late to finish their turns.

Make all other moves (not end turn) ..
wait with Bellerophon's move until turn almost flips

(I can also keep an eye on that, when we are able to make a move in the last hour of the turn it should work)

[DNK]

@RP: disagree.

[Calanthian]

I disagree too. Only if we have a clear tech of economical lead I am pro-war. In all other circumstances war will only hurt both parties.

Competing for good city sites, expansion space etc. is a whole other matter.

[Ben Kenobi]

Why not ally? 1+2 together will ensure that both of us will see through to the finish.

[Robert]

The early rush is powerful.
If we hide ourselves long enough and can build 3 horsemen, and then show up to their border to find out their strength.
Then we can always still decide to go for it or not. Imagine they have only 2 warriors in the city!

After that we may be able to settle for peace quickly.
Of course I'm not hinting at a long lasting war, but just a short one.

It's exactly this kind of stuff that makes people stronger in competitive games.
This is not a builder game.

We have the advantage of knowing where they are while they don't know about us, and we can take fully advantage of it.

I suggest that for now we at least keep our presence in the dark so that we can discuss it.

[Calanthian]

This attack would undermine our position towards all other civs..

[mzprox]

In my opinion going for offensive is too risky and costly while the gain is questionable.

Risky because they will have BW, the spiritual trait to quickly slave an army. With spearmen they could easily defeat us.

Costly, because we would have to abandon our current path for science, build units instead of libraries and pay increased support/supply.

And what could we gain? new cities? those would cost too much money and would be very hard to defend. One less competitor? maybe,but there are still 7 more and if we weaken ourselves we just be an easier target ofr the rest. More land? right now we don't really need more.

But in the most probably scenario we would destroy 1-2 of their cities, then we would be halted, we would have a weakened neighbor with sworn vendetta against us, and we too would be weakened, outteched by the rest.

We should play to our strenght, and that is to be builder/diplomatic.

For the best benefits I sugges t to make contact next turn, but wait till near the end of turn as Cal suggests.

[DNK]

What he said.