Lizzy's rise to greatness

[mzprox]

just an additional note: we'd only start the war if we can't get to agreement and the stiuation for a quick attack is still favorable. it is possible that I spot new troops next turn or they move into a more defendable position, then we will not attack.. for now. we will have time to discuss what to do next.

Right now the only way to start the war (by moving first) is to let the timer out and the maya should not be around.

I believe Maya iknows these thigns as well, so I predict they will be around when the turn flips and they will move their units into the forest tile. We can't attack them there.

So even if we go along with option 'A' it is much more likely that the war will not start in the next turn.

i'm not even sure it's worth stalling the time.. because 99% chance that they will be there when the turn flips and we are not allowed to attack them then. And as I have said they can move into the forest tile.

[Dinner]

1. I specifically said I was willing to take over and likely several others would as well but you said you were better than everyone else and wanted to stay in control. That's fine, I'm happy with that solution, but do stop the pedantic nonsense about saying no one offered or that you're going to run away and hide if you don't get your way on everything. It's tiresome.

2. I in fact have done diplomacy when ever asked to do so.

3. Yes, you made grand plans for the big picture and equally, yes, we have occasionally questioned if in light of new developments if changes should be made. This is good, rational, and healthy so please do get over yourself and your little drama just because other players wanted some changes made. It's childish.

Now, WRT this:

I told this many time: I will only swith technology path, city production etc if I get a thoughtfull analysis why is that path is better than the current one.

Wrong. Just completely wrong. The turn player carries out what the majority of the team members want even if they do not agree with the decision. If your chosen path ends up not winning the team vote then I suggest you become more persuasive in your arguments but the team vote is the final arbiter of what the team does not the turn player. Period. End of discussion.

Personally, I agree, yes, sound reasoning and good arguments are the best basis to decide policy but every time you lose a vote you throw a hissy fit like a teenage girl or worse you simply ignore what the vote was and continue doing what ever the hell you want. That is tiresome and unacceptable. I would like you to stay and I believe the team is stronger with you on it but, no, you will not always get your way and you are not the arbiter or gatekeeper wrt team policy.

As for going to war, as I have said in the past, I will conditionally vote for war but I want to see construction immediately moved to building military units. Not next turn, not in five turns, not some distant future date when we get gunpowder. We need a damn army and we need it now. Further more, ALL future research needs to be shifted to military techs until we secure the needed techs. That is to include iron working for swordsmen, the techs for catapults, and a strong defensive unit of some sort (that will depend upon what units they bring against us but long bows or crossbows would make good options as would macemen). All the available units need to be moved to defend the front where ever possible.

[Hercules]

Ok I vote A.

You make a good case for a limited war now.

Try to avoid slaving if you can, so as to maintain our momentum to macemen.

[mzprox]

I answer here to both thread:

1, I think it was months ago when i posted that i'm getting fed up with you guys and anyone who is a little bit expert in civ could take over.. no one answered there. I'm even more fed now than then.

2, What type of help I get from my team? I've asked to do the diplomacy, to make screenshots, to make analysis of our rivals.. did you do anything? NO. From Ben I usually get a one liner and from Dinner an insult. Despite I'm not getting any help I still spend hours a day doing everything including reports.

3, I'm getting tired that I tell you about the plans and situations but apparently you don't follow it. You kept asking about what technologies we have, what resources we have, are we in a certain civics.. etc.. but if you had followed the thread all those questions could had been answered. I've told you why education was good for us. I told about what I think about wars and military. Don't confuse a full scale war with a border rivalization. The defender has a big advantage and none of the civilizations is really ready to take on an other.. it's so easy to slave a cheap archer army.

Now to answer some questions:

The Maya is bigger and stronger because they don't unilize slaving as much as we do and have the creative trait. They need most of their soldiers as police units. Our cities are smaller but much more developed: we have courthouses, forges, religious buildings, hammams (aqueducts) the Maya has zero of those things

I have talked both with india and the Aztec about the situation.
Aztec has no army whatsoever and their main rival is RB. They are abit angry with the mayans as they have taken land from them too.
India said they would help, but not now. they are occupied with the zulu war.

Both suggest that we shouldn't start a war right now as it would strengthen Rb's position.

I told this many time: I will only swith technology path, city production etc if I get a thoughtfull analysis why is that path is better than the current one. Our main diplomacy is however up to voting. I offered some options, none of you has voted yet. So I make a simplier now there is about 8-10 hours to vote:


A-We go to war now

B. We don't go to war now

This is assuming we don't get an acceptable answer from the Maya

I vote 'A'.

My reasoning: I found the maya from their letters and action to be untrustworthy, sneaky and most of all greedy. They want everything and don't want to negotiate about it. They used the time to stall the decision while they have brought more troops.
The realities of the war: if we strike first we have a good chance killing 3 of their units without losses (axemen, spearman, settler)
then we can fortify Izmir with archers, axemen etc. it's a city on hill we could hold it while we are trying to find a way out of the war. We don't want to defeat the MAya, we can't do that as defenders have the advantage, and we want to be the defenders after our inital attack.

This war would cost us losing the sugar we get from them, and the trade income from their big cities. We would need to slave soldiers, so we would lose population.
What we gain: we punish the Maya for the arrogance, we weaken them. We protect Izmir from being choked. and build a much better shaped border towrds the Maya.

If we don't go war then we will have a neighbour with more land and more power. choked cites from their creative cities close to our core land.

[Dinner]

Can our allies bring any influence to bear on the Mayans?

What can we offer?

A good question. Maybe one of their neighbors (the Aztecs or something) can tell them how they support us and want the two of us to solve our problems peacefully so we can jointly deal with RB.

[Ben Kenobi]

right now they are much bigger and stronger than us.

What is your plan for rectifying this?

[Ben Kenobi]

No one wants war while one of the civs is running away. The cheap universities thanks to our philosophy trait and then building the Oxford early will give us an edge. Those techs you are mentioning would just hold us back.

Which is why we need to figure out what we are doing before we go to war. Are we going to continue pursuing the path all the way to Janisseries and skip the older techs? Then we focus on that and ignore the Maya for now.

This half-assed maybe go into war, maybe not go into war isn't going to accomplish anything. If we're going to consciously gun for the techs and ignore war for now - then we need to stick with that.

Also we will see if we still have a shot on liberalism, it would be nice to take it from RB.

We don't have the game in front of us. Do we still have a shot at liberalism?

And about military techs: if we were in danger at the moment we could get the techs for maceme in 2-3 turns. we are closest to the required technology among all the civs. And after we have Education: it opens up gunpowder with that we get the strongest unit if the era, our unique unit, the janissaries.

but it is also the most usefull technology for us in the moment.

So then we need to do what we can to pacify the Maya and forgo expansion for the moment.

[Hercules]

Can our allies bring any influence to bear on the Mayans?

What can we offer?

[mzprox]

I honestly don't even know what it is I am supposed to check on civstats.

You can see there who is played, have they finished their turn, how much time left on the timers and there are some other subtle info as well. it's important to check before logging in especially during times of war or possible war.

[mzprox]

Ok, but what do you guys want in the current situation?
I still haven1t heard your thoughts except that we need more soldiers-which is a valid point, we are building more soldiers, but right now I don't sacrifice too much economic power to it.

So what should we do and why?

1-Let them settle+friendship, love

2-let the settle, lie about friendship and attack later (I believe they will fortify their city a big time)

3-Threaten with war as much as possible to make them rethink, but not going into war (similar in result than 1, but with much less love)

4-attack them now if they won1t accept our proposal

5-other.

note that in case of war (either 2 or 4) I don1t mean a full scale war but to get that region and defend from that point. There are optios for full scale war, but I don't think we should try it... right now they are much bigger and stronger than us.

[Dinner]

I honestly don't even know what it is I am supposed to check on civstats.

[Dinner]

You need to remember your Sun Tzu: Successful generals win first and then go to war while unsuccessful generals go to war first and then seek to win. We don't have an army worth the name so certainly haven't won first. Sure, we have a reasonable chance of destroying one settler but we'll likely lose 1-2 cities in short order. That is not what I'd call a successful strategy.

[mzprox]

Yes, but consciously doing stupid things would make someone stupid, wouldn't it?

anyway: during these time please always consult with civstats when you log in. If war starts then we must watch turn order. in this case we want maya to be the second in turn, so we should not log in after they had finished or else we can't start the next tun with war.

bacl to the situation at hand:
As i have said I'm still unsure what is the best to do, but basically there are two paths.
We either let them build a city there nad try to strengthen our friendship despite they ignored us or we take out that city. I believe that taking the city would be much cheaper now than it would be later,
Still I1m hopng to have a peacefull solution, by now they know we are serious about our threats.

[Dinner]

No, I did not call you any of those names. What I did say is starting a war without bothering to build an army is stupid, moronic, and retarded. It's the action I'm calling stupid not a person. English is fundamental.

BTW you are welcome to stay or not stay, as you please. What you are not welcome to continue to do is ignore everyone else and just do what ever you please. This is a democracy game and it is run democratically even if the vote goes against what you wish.

[mzprox]

I think you should find your manners or I will start answering you in he same kind...

If you think about a bit you would see Konya is not in danger.

There will be 4 new military unirts near the front builded in 3 turns. We finished one last turn. Archery is already being researched as you wanted.

And I'm sorry but you guys gave me an impression that you sometimes miss even some basic civ4 game mechanics and still you are the one calling me 'stupid, moron, and retarded' So our civ either tries to be competitve even by taking a considerable risk or I leave it to you and you can mess with it as much you want.