Lizzy's rise to greatness

[Robert]

I see that mzprox comes with long-term strategy planning and ideas that are not ideas by themselves, but fit in a bigger picture.
I see that others oppose some of his ideas, which is good I think, because opposition strengthens everything.
But what I miss in these opposing ideas is how it fits in a bigger picture.

Sometimes a single decision may, if you discuss it isolated, seem to be better in one way, while it's better in another way if you're after a bigger strategy.

So far mzprox is the only one delivering a long-term strategy, so I will continue to support him.
And I'm urging others to come with alternatives and improvements on the long-term ideas. I cannot support single ideas that may just be good for one or ten turns.

I'm not involved enoughin this game to contribute myself, but I can read up on ideas and weight arguments against eachother.
I know from mzprox that he's one of the best players I know. He has defeated me several times. (and yes, one time b/c luck was on his hands )

So please understand that I'd rather side with someone who has a track record of being good at civ4, and who delivers a big picture and solid arguments.

[mzprox]

Where are the HRE in all this?

Are they with RB or India or alone?.

Good question, they were not often mentioned in our chats. I will try to contact them and secure our peace at least. The have a very big land for themselves, many cities and they are spamslaving courthouses (the are Org, so it's cheap to them)

[Hercules]

Where are the HRE in all this?

Are they with RB or India or alone?.

[mzprox]

Ben, if you knew anything about civ you would know you can't sell buildings. You haven't made a single usefull suggestion, all you can do is to try to undermine things. Have you spent some hours actually playing out a scenario? Do you see where are the civs currently who has started a war.. the zulu and the natives are hopelessly fallen behind, they are the bottom civs. I have expected more of a team member to shame me because apparently we are not winning and there are more skilled players than me in the world. how many multiplayer games you have won so far? Have the others 'congratulate' you ironicly after you had fallen behind? I guess not. i'm just sick of you really..

but enough off topic. India is still in the race for the Taj Mahal. we helped them, inca helpd Egypt, we will see what happens, It won't take more than 5-6 turns and we shall adjust strategy accordingly. at this stages we are building up treaties, alliances, attack plans.

If it would be war aganst the inca, then we will have to assume RB's support to them, but that's ok. If we start a war then it will be done with a coordination mostly with the Aztec, but WPC and India would play parts in the plannings too. There are also plans that after India has defeated the zulu they would help us against the Maya. so no one will rush to a war foolishly, because the result would be a same as it with the zulu and Natives who can't really hope getting any better weaponry than axemen and it's matter of time to be wiped out. Our civ's weaponry will always be on par with the other advanced civs'. And when it comes to war anthing can happen.. diplomacy will be very impotant and I believe that's working for us so far.

[Dinner]

If Mzprox is unwilling to build up for war and go the war route, he needs to step down right away.

Let's stop that. We resolved it last week so let's just move on, shall we?

[Dinner]

OK, if we decide we're not going to attack the Inca and instead just build a defensive force then we should build universities and max out every city we can actually squeeze into our tiny little home land.

[Ben Kenobi]

If Mzprox is unwilling to build up for war and go the war route, he needs to step down right away.

[Ben Kenobi]

Then we either get some must have cheaper techs, construction, machinery, feudalism (catapult, macemen, longbowman) or get gunpowder and janissaries. This is only if we decide on war.

We lost to RB - so the only thing left for us now is to go to war. That means feeding off the techs. Gunpowder and Janissaries, and trying to take as much stuff as we can take. IF we can't take RB - then we need to crush someone else.

That's going to be the strategic plan here.

Education and universities only useful insofar as they keep us on this track to get gunpower. After that, we should sell them all, and just go 100 percent military and do what we can to take gobs of land.

[Ben Kenobi]

you can be sure that they are not running their game in democracy style, but having their masterminds playing and planning everythin in advane for tens of turns on dummy maps.

So, let's see.

Despite your 'strategy' of 'feeding the other players'

You failed to contain RB, stop them or prevent them from doing anything. Now they are just going to try to overrun things.

Congratulations, Mzprox.

I can't see how giving you full control over the game would have changed anything. Whining about 'poor land', isn't going to change things. Are you capable of beating RB or are you not capable of beating them? You agreed to be a turnplayer to a democracy game. If you can't do it, step down and let Cali take over.

It seems to me that they have more of a democracy game style than we do - taking input from multiple players who actually know how to play the game better. You're getting beat straight up by better players.

In any case, we need to prepare for war now, because your strategy failed 100 percent. It kept us in the game, sure, but it didn't contain RB. Now, we have to go to war and do what we can to defeat them.

RB has been one step in front of you the entire game. Do you not see this?

[mzprox]

Just a picture from current turn.

We have a new settlers. I think it's best to take the marked city site before inca changes his mind. also if there will be war it's better to have more cities in the area.
I believe this will be our last city for a while. we don't need to rush with the others, our borders are quite set, yet we will have many spot to fill. not so great sites except 1-2, but still they can give some commerce.
By next tun our capital will be relocated to Aurora. I think bursa (see on picture) would be a good place to build the forbidden palace.
Recently we had built two new workers, mostly they are building cottages and moving into position to start chopping libraries/universities where necessary. (it's still 3 tuns until Education)

[mzprox]

Inca are more than likely working with RB so they should be our target. That said, how do we know the Inca won't be helped by RB? Also, assuming they attack in 20 turns, which I think is a good bet, if we build the universities will we still have time to construct an offensive force which is capable of really taking their cities in the remaining number of turns? Our UU seems good but we'll need siege weapons too and we'll have to hope the Maya don't take advantage of our distraction by breaking the NAP.

What would it take to get our UU and trebuchets and can we both get them and build them with in 20 turns?

I've said we could be prepared in 20 turns in case they attack us. we will use our chariots to scout their forces and try to extend the nap at least t160. but even by t150 we can have several Longbows or if we decide janissaries defending our cities. against those the incan army can't do too much. If Rb joins them then so will our friends on our side. If we decide on offensive we can hve our army ready between t160 and 170.

The current timeframe I think we should follow:
t131-134 Education+archery
from t135 we go 100% money
t135-138 building of the universities
t139-t141 finishing the Oxford
t142->back to research
Then we either get some must have cheaper techs, construction, machinery, feudalism (catapult, macemen, longbowman) or get gunpowder and janissaries. This is only if we decide on war.
Before we get to these techs we will build many archers. if no war happens they can ct as police force, if there is a war we can upgrade them even to janissaries.

[Dinner]

Inca are more than likely working with RB so they should be our target. That said, how do we know the Inca won't be helped by RB? Also, assuming they attack in 20 turns, which I think is a good bet, if we build the universities will we still have time to construct an offensive force which is capable of really taking their cities in the remaining number of turns? Our UU seems good but we'll need siege weapons too and we'll have to hope the Maya don't take advantage of our distraction by breaking the NAP.

What would it take to get our UU and trebuchets and can we both get them and build them with in 20 turns?

[mzprox]

Some news from the game:

RB got an even bigger leap.. they might had just technically won the game, but that's just how i see at the moment, others might disagree and even my opinion can change in time .
I don't want to explain the events long, I have told you we were monitoring them and wrote some info about the race for liberalism, Taj and the great merchant. RB has executed a plan extremely precisely, timing of their golden age, great persons, resources, sacrifices etc. We saw this coming for some time, still hoped RB would build an academy or doing something differently.. we tried to hide how close we were( I mean india)getting the taj too, but apparently they did not take any risk.
They got paper in this turn, they also got education in this turn (bulbed two GS into it which they got during their golden age while they wre in pacifism).. they will get liberalism/nationalism in the next turn (thanks to their huge research overflow they had gathered. You must see that they gathered this overflow only that they can delay education and be able to fully bulb it exactly when their second GS arrives.)
with well planned multiple slavings of their population they manged to collect the maximum possible overflow an they will get about 300 production into the Taj in the very first turn. With those i have no doubts they will get Taj and get an other golden age. And we saw that how much benefit they get from golden ages.. after that we won't be competitors anymore.. none of the other civs will be.
we could say that circumstances helped Rb a lot.. better land and position, good events like their neighbours were killing each other, capturing barb city in good place, getting a religion only because india delyed to get it etc. But above these all is their team skill and commitment to the game. you can be sure that they are not running their game in democracy style, but having their masterminds playing and planning everythin in advane for tens of turns on dummy maps.

In the light of recent events we need to discuss the grand strategy. I said RB might have won, but ofc an alliance still have chance to bring them down, I just meant that it might come to a 3 vs 1 or a 6 vs 2 game or somethng. which is quite less glorious to those who are in the bigger pack.. still can be fun tho.

I thin it's time to make those alliances.. to select our target, to select the time frame, to organize everything and execute the plan.

I still think that we should focus on geting the universities/oxford first and asap. the benefit in the long run is big.

Then we could choose to backfill the techs we left out, get technologies for macemen, knight etc. OR go directly for gunpowder and attack a neighbour with our unique unit.

There is really one we should consider for our target, the Inca, who has played big part in why Rb has become this trong. They are the one giving marble to RB doomingour efforts, they gave their great general to RB so they could build the heroic epic., we saw several RB units already in incan land (workers, military). We can't even rule out that they would be the first to attack us when our nap runs out in 20 turns. in any case we will be prepared. I will try to extend this nap with an other ten turns at least in any case.

[Dinner]

Tech stealing is something I would support whole heartedly.

[Ben Kenobi]

I agree with techstealing the hell outta Maya.