Lizzy's rise to greatness

[mzprox]

proposed answer to the Mayans:

"We are happy to hear that we could get to an agreement and we would happily sign a treaty which ensures the borders we agreed on along with a non aggression pact. We suggest to sign a NAP for about the next 50 turns (T180) then we can extend it from there. We as many others will take Egypt as our only rivals until their relative strength somehow declines."

I think I have worded in a way that the NAP is part of the border treaty.
Btw they had pulld back their settlers and we have ours is on its way to take that land in 3-4 turns.

[mzprox]

I will try to write detailed reports about the current state of game for those who are trying to catch up with events. I'm still trying to get more people back here, hopefully i'll be succesfull.


Right now we are medicore in score and stats aswell, but we have a relatively strong economy and probably the second most advanced civ. This "second" place seems to be the best possible rankings right now, as one of the civs, Realms Beyond is running away like crazy. Their skill is undeniabe but this time it seems everything works in their hands.
As we have found out our land really lacks compared to others.. we have few short rivers instead of long ones which seems to be the normal everywhere else .Our land is relatively small as well, this comes mostly from our position. we could expand only east-west. We have place about 6-7 more cites, and those are not that great.
Our food production is quite low, but we are growing fast -then to be slaved to small again.
As far as I can tell our cities are very well developed, we have many forges, courthouses, religios buildings etc that's how we are competitive with those bigger civs. The strategy is that once we allow ourselves to grow big we will have the advantage.
We have quite few workers, we could use more, but it is not common to use undeveloped land in our cities-this is also the effct of slaving.
Our military is quite minimal. we have defense in our two border areas, almost nothing in between. This was because of economy reasons.. high maintenance was already killing us, i tried my best to keep it low.
We got the +1 naval movement bonus thanks to our map tradings
We have two wonders, the Colossus and the University of Sankore (we should keep building religious buildings to get more benefits)



the strategy was to try to run away with science and reap some benefits which come with it: liberalim, Taj mahal or other wonders, free great persons etc. Now it seems we will lose most of these races to RB unfortunately. But i believe if we have a chance we still should try.

short medium term strategy was to get education, use our trait to mass build cheap universities and getthe Oxford fast. with that science power we could easily backfill the cheaper technologies.
We, India and the Aztec are closely monitring RB. we made a plan with india to stop RB getting both liberalims and the Taj. We still don't know if they go for liberalism or nationalism first. If they go for lib then India will probably beat them to Taj, getting it first. If RB goes for Nationalism we will have a shot on liberalism. Right now we believe Rb will get liberalism first. To still get something for us as well I think we should get to economics first and get the free Great merchant (Then i would use him for a GA and get constitution while it lasts so we could revolt to representation/free market freely). But it's not in the close future.

As I've mentioned we have very good relations with India and Aztec, we have chats time to time. If it comes to war then those two civs will have to defeat RB.
Some diplo deals we have with other civs:

India has recently asked us for a possible loan if that would help them getting the Taj sooner. 150gold 3-4 turns from now for 1-2 turns. i think if it takes the GA from Rb then we shoul do it. we can ask for some interest, but I think we should ask them to give us one of their silk resource. i think they would agree. once we have both incense hooked we can give one of them to them.

Aztec has agreed to send us a buddhist missionary if we send him a taoist one. Buddhism is the religion of the apostolic palace so it worth spreading into our cities and get +2 production from buddhist temples(along with extra happyness). we have a not finalized deal with them. They have promised us one of the spice resources from the jungle if we don't expand there. we should discuss this later a bit more.

Maya: we had a crisis recently but it seems we can struck a NAP finally. we get sugar from them for a wheat resource, so it's like getting a luxury for free.

Inca: we have peace and good relations with them. according to our agrement the land east of our borders is ours (2 city places, not that good, but not bad either) in return we don't expand south (that's one of the reason that agreeing with the Aztec not moving to the jungle and still get somethin from them too)

HRE: we don't talk much, we are getting their stone for 7gpt. it's still a few turn until we can cancel this deal, we are building the moai statues in istanbul meanwhile. we need to think about if we want to cancel at all, we will need stone for the Oxford.

Egypt(RB): we have cold relations, we have NAP till t150, but we are not bordering each other.

Natives: they are small and far away.

[Ben Kenobi]

Calanthian, the only reason I put up the proposal I did when I did is I believed going into a war unprepared was disastrous. Did that make for hurt feelings? Yes, I'm sure it did. Nobody likes to be criticized especially if they believe they are doing their best and are making the most of a difficult situation.

I understand that - I've been there. I made a major screwup on strategy once that lead to a disastrous loss. Did I like being blamed for it? No. But, were they right to blame me? Absolutely.

I would rather hurt feelings now if it means avoiding something that will lead to disaster.

I don't want to hurt feelings here- but what other options are there when you feel that someone is going off a cliff?

[Calanthian]

I'm willing to take over, but before you let me you need to understand that the reason I drifted away before was the 'mood' .. If it is no fun, then I don't need to play the game.

I hope we can achieve happy cooperation along with a clear strategy.

And more 'diplomatic' wording of proposals and counterproposals.
Words like moronic etc. don't need to be used at all, even if they are not geared towards another player, but at the strategy etc.

My overall goal would be to have a chance to win (thus longterm before shortterm) . Thus we need to take risks from the situation we are in now.

[Ben Kenobi]

Mz, we aren't your enemy. I agree, I think Calanthian should take over for awhile. This game was never intended to have just one turnplayer - the understanding is that you and Calanthian would take turns.

There are two reasons for this.

One - two heads being better than one.

Two - that it gives you time to take it off and take a break from it.

It has nothing to do with your abilities, and everything to do with the goal that we all have here - to win. Nobody fights alone, and certainly you do not either. Soldiers rotate out. Why? Because it makes them more effective.

[mzprox]

One can argue without calling the other's action by names, and no matter how you try to "spin" it it is an insult. And "reasonable adults" reasons..not trying to get high ground by using words like "stupid moronic retarded etc". I've never said "I'll quit unless everyone does what I want". If I would leave it would be because the mood here makes the game not fun. The reason I'm stil here is that I don't want to abandon Apolyton. I don't think and of you would put as much work into the game as I do daily. i'd be more happy to let Cal take over than you would. i've asked him before and asked him recently too. also I'm trying to rally here more people from the Apolyton veterans, we will see how it works out.

[Dinner]

Yes Good outcome. Now lets figure a strategy re other teams.

We'll tell them after they've moved their settler out of area then we will sign a NAP but not before. I suspect they will try to sneak in a settler the second a NAP is signed.

[Dinner]

Calling my actions moronic, stupid, retarded, childish, comparing me to a teenage girl is an insult. You can't talk in civil manner. I've never called your advices stupid, instead i've tried make a normal argument and if I thought it was necessary explain how the civilization game mechanics work. It is your arrogance which creates drama.

Sorry, but no matter how you try to spin it starting a war without first building an army and not lining up any allies is stupid. Once again, that is talking about an action not a person. We might still be able to limit the damage but it will require an all out effort on the military front and that will mean lots of units to fend off their attacks. In an attempt to get along with you I will try to be extra careful about your obvious sensitivities but, yes, you have repeatedly told multiple people that everyone does what you want or you'll quit and take your marbles home. That is not the actions of reasonable adult so hopefully you will understand that and adjust your behavior. If you don't act in such a fashion then people won't say you're acting in such a way. FACT.

[Hercules]

Yes Good outcome. Now lets figure a strategy re other teams.

[Ben Kenobi]

I vote B - Limited war is suicide.

[mzprox]

letter from the Maya:

Dear ottomans,

We had hard internal discussions in our high council, but we finally decide to accept your proposal and go back with our settler. We appriciated that your were frank with us and tell your limit and we believe that we have better to do together in this game than to fight and let an other team take the lead.

We will settle to have a coastal city near the corn (and exploit it), at the same level than izmir. It is out of your forbiddeen area of your message.

If we agree on that border, can we then discuss on a NAP?

Best regards,

Mayans


This seems to be a nice victory and they have sent this in the very last moment. if the turn ended sooner i would probably had executed the attack though i had serious doubts. Right now it seems diplomacy and military threats worked great, BUT this also could be a trick so we wil have to be caotious.

if it's a honest letter we have no reason to refuse the NAP and concetrate on our peaceful development.

Right now our scout in incan land shows no sight of hostility from there and they have expressed their good will towards us. (they fear that their war with the natives could continue) so we won't have dangerous enemies at our borders though we will keep the mayan border reinforced and watch them closely.

[mzprox]

Calling my actions moronic, stupid, retarded, childish, comparing me to a teenage girl is an insult. You can't talk in civil manner. I've never called your advices stupid, instead i've tried make a normal argument and if I thought it was necessary explain how the civilization game mechanics work. It is your arrogance which creates drama.

[Hercules]

Guys pause for breath. This would not be good for our civ at this time. Stop trading threats.

But yes, democracy rules.

[Dinner]

If you're unable to carry out the duties of the office then maybe you should leave. The turn player follows what the majority vote is, always, and if you're unable to follow something so simple then maybe you shouldn't be the turn player. I have repeatedly said I would like you to stay but if you're unable to follow that simple democratic rule then you must go.

Can you follow it or not?

Also go ahead and quote any insult I used in the previous post. It wasn't there and once again you are creating drama. Stop that, seriously.

[mzprox]

Dinner, one more post like that and I'm ingoring you for the rest of the game and you can go moan wherever you want. I've never insulted you and I will not take it from you anymore.