Lizzy's rise to greatness

[mzprox]

The decision on where and when to plant cities is not simply commerce vs production, but if we choose production we must be sure that we can use it for useful stuff.
Right now it seems that if we go fo the horse city then we could build chariots sooner, then more settlers and then we need more workers and more units to defend ourselves and we must build these because there are hardly anything else to build. and all these just increase the maintenance cost slowing our science even more. And I think we should not allow that. There are too many usefull technology which would allow us to use our production better.. we need them all and as soon as possible. bronzeworking for chopping, mathematics for better chopping/hammam, code of lawas (courthouses), currency (more tade, turning production into wealth), a religion/org religion civic, monarchy(wine and civic), calendar(for the spice), etc.
Thats why we should not let our science rate drop and should choose the cottages over production.

[Hercules]

Okay I got interested and did a rudimentary source dive. Here's what I got, which is probably way wrong but I'll let DanF or someone else (or myself, later) correct me, as I probably farked up somewhere The setting-dependant constants are given as examples.

These are calculated independently for each city.

Distance to capital maintenance:

either:
MAX_DISTANCE_CITY_MAINTENANCE * DISTANCE_TO_NEAREST_CAPITAL * ((CITY_POPULATION + 7) / 10) * WORLD_MODIFIER * DIFFICULTY_MODIFIER * CIVIC_MODIFIER / MAX_DISTANCE
or:
MAX_DISTANCE_CITY_MAINTENANCE * DISTANCE_TO_FARTHEST_CITY * ((CITY_POPULATION + 7) / 10) * WORLD_MODIFIER * DIFFICULTY_MODIFIER * CIVIC_MODIFIER / MAX_DISTANCE

Whichever is smaller. No idea about the lower one - maybe for Civs with no capital, like the barbarians?

MAX_DISTANCE_CITY_MAINTENANCE: 25
DISTANCE somewhere: I think just 1.5 per diagonal plot and 1 per cardinal plot
WORLD_MODIFIER: Standard=0.80, Huge=1.00
DIFFICULTY_MODIFIER: Noble=0.75, Immortal=1.00
CIVIC_MODIFIER: 0 for State Property, 1 for rest
MAX_DISTANCE: I guess the longest possible distance on a given map

Number of cities maintenance:

(NUMBER_OF_CITIES + (NUMBER_OF_VASSAL_CITIES / NUMBER_OF_TEAM_MEMBERS)) * ((CITY_POPULATION + 17) / 18) * WORLD_MODIFIER * DIFFICULTY_MODIFIER * CIVIC_MODIFIER

WORLD_MODIFIER: Standard=0.30, Huge=0.20
DIFFICULTY_MODIFIER: Noble=0.70, Immortal=0.95
CIVIC_MODIFIER: 1
Maximum value for this type of maintenance: Noble=5, Immortal=7

Colony maintenance:

((NUMBER_OF_CITIES_ON_LANDMASS - 1) * ((CITY_POPULATION + 17) / 18) * WORLD_MODIFIER * DIFFICULTY_MODIFIER)^2
0 if capital on landmass
0 if No Vassals enabled

WORLD_MODIFIER: Standard=0.45, Huge=0.30
DIFFICULTY_MODIFIER: Noble=1.00, Immortal=1.50

This is capped as well at:
Noble=2*DISTANCE_MAINTENANCE
Immortal=2*DISTANCE_MAINTENANCE

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Last edited by Silu; Sep 29, 2009 at 03:47 AM. Reason: Added colony maintenance

Got this from a Silu post at CFC.

I guess max distance ie longest possible distance has kicked in.

[Hercules]

Aurora is founded. There is problem though, in the actual map the city 'distant from palace' cost is much higher than those in our test maps. 1,72 vs 1,13. this means that we pay one gold more for maintenance which is at this stage about 10% of our entire income. This will affect our science rate and might affect our plan for further development. Would be nice if someone could create a test map which has the same maintenance costs. (obviously the map we are playing on is quite biger than the huge settings)

I looked back at the test maps (t43 and t50) and in particular our second city. In one the distance from palace cost was 1.41 and in another the distance from palace cost was 1.69. I didn't find a 1.13 and in both cases the maps were Huge and Emperor.

Yes there is a difference but maybe not as large as we thought.


Edit: I did find 1.13 in the test game t36 at post 57. Interesting this variation.

[Dinner]

I want the flood plain then the horses settled. I'm fine with worker, worker, settler, settler if we really can get it done in 7-8 turns. After that build a scout and let him run wild.

[Calanthian]

my builds in Apolyton would be : worker - worker - settler - settler

So there would only be 7 or 8 turns between both cities.

[LzPrst]

should we have another vote on whether to settle horses before flood plain? I am a bit uncertain. A good tech lead is always healthy, but it could invite hostility as well. a good production rate is often preferred to income in my book, but with the cost of cities being higher, we may need that gold even more than we thought.

what was the delay? if we build city 3 for the flood plains, was it 20 more turns before we could settle the horses? wouldnt 2 settlers back to back be the best option, then a ton of workers to catch up with the land improvement?

if anyone has second thoughts on their votes, please speak now.

[Calanthian]

If the map is bigger, and maintenance is higher, then it would be logical to get those cottages going first..
As we will be farther away from our competition.

[mzprox]

Aurora is founded. There is problem though, in the actual map the city 'distant from palace' cost is much higher than those in our test maps. 1,72 vs 1,13. this means that we pay one gold more for maintenance which is at this stage about 10% of our entire income. This will affect our science rate and might affect our plan for further development. Would be nice if someone could create a test map which has the same maintenance costs. (obviously the map we are playing on is quite biger than the huge settings)

[Hercules]

This sounds more like it guys, but I will wait for the test game results based on city 3 W of the horse and on that city NW of oasis option.

Meanwhile it looks like Belle's next move will be S to the hill.

To the east looks like desert.

I wonder if plako designed the map such that the civs have desert buffer zones east and west.

[LzPrst]

I say we grab the horse first. I know the value of those extra cottages, but in a game like this I believe paranoid>meticulous

[mzprox]

Moved warrior2 SE

Aurora will be founded in this turn, but I will do that later. I'm toying with some idea hot to develop further. we have many great sites for food and production, however we don't really have too much to build: military units we can't have too many and we need more advanced ones than warriors anyway, granaryies, barracks are not top priority yet, more settlers/workers: possibly, but civ upkeep is rising.
I wouldn't mind building our next city next to the horse, I also like the city spot NW of the southern oasis, just one road and immediately can work on the oasis and even on Arora's cow 8while i can switch to more floodplain cottage). so many options..

[Calanthian]

Just took a look around. Didn't play a thing..

[Calanthian]

Mz, when you check my first test game (the first build schedule, a few threadpages back) you can explore that possibility.

There is room for improvement in that test game..

[mzprox]

city3 is important there to help us grow the cottages, we can however switch the oder how we found them. going for horse city first results in less science, but more production. I will make a testgamew for that too.

[Calanthian]

And we have to wait for the horse to actually get hooked up...

We don't need to wait.. It can be hooked up around turn 50.

Even if we have to make a temporary trade off in beakers & hammers, we need to do this. Our long term security and position in the game is going to be determined more by politics and information then it will bean counting.

Agreed. We really need to scout more. Let Bellerophon continue AND build chariots around turn 50.