Game Settings

[OzzyKP]

We're still waiting on a few people to vote for settings, but I think we've reached consensus on a few issues (always war off, no huts/events, etc).

One question I had about the settings, which could impact our civ choice, is that DNK mentioned that a 2-axis wrap map increases maintenance costs. How much? If that setting is chosen then does the Organized trait become more powerful?

[Calanthian]

-axis wrap map increases maintenance costs. How much? If that setting is chosen then does the Organized trait become more powerful?

Or choose the HRE (Rathaus)..
Org trait I still don't like..

[Calanthian]

Map settings:

* prefer other map as Pangaea (like sea war > and I think we are good at it)
* wrapping in all directions

[OzzyKP]

I think we are poorly suited for early war, so any kind of map that gives us some space early game would probably be in our interests.

[OzzyKP]

Or choose the HRE (Rathaus)..
Org trait I still don't like..

I've seen some discussion here and there that Org was about the same net benefit as Fin so I always wondered about that. So... I did some tests. I found an old 1000 AD scenario save of mine that I played up to 1922. I made a world builder save of it and then went in and changed the leaders of all civs to Mansa Musa, then I created a copy of it and changed all the leaders to Asoka. Then I made a direct comparison for each civ between the Fin leader and the Org leader. Fin won every time. With 17 different civs of vastly different sizes and compositions the Fin civs had an average of 40 more gold/science per turn then the Org ones. This is late game where Org is supposed to shine. Though how do you factor in Org's production bonuses? I imagine Fin still wins out. But interesting to see it in black and white. I have the spread sheet if anyone is curious.

I also took a look at 100% science vs. a sustainable balance. I added the total GPT (or subtracted if negative) to the total beakers per turn to come up with a raw number in both cases. For some civs 100% had a higher total output, for other civs it was higher overall when the slider was balanced. I suppose the civs with a greater benefit out of the mixed slider had more gold modifying buildings? Go figure.

Though Organized might be better in a specialist economy, I dunno.

[DNK]

Little testing in SP - I can't get a map to go from 0-axis to 1-axis to 2-axis, but I can't get it to go between two of those. Odd.

Anyway, I found distance costs go like this:
28 for toroidal
21 for X-axis
33% increase for toroidal over x-axis

37 for x-axis
25 for flat
50% increase for x-axis over flat

100% increase for toroidal over flat.

Seems to be a lesser issue, but still will be significant. I'm not sure - does Org have an effect on city distance upkeep? I thought it was just civic costs... World wrap doesn't seem to affect civic costs. Testing confirms this. Org will be nice for cheaper courthouses, at least.

Basically, we need a better courthouse for toroidal, which means HRE. I dislike HRE as it starts with 2 pretty crap techs: mysticism (do we want to get an early religion at this level of MP competition? If so, it's a solid choice) and hunting (no warrior = bad). Especially without huts and with barbs, the early scout is going to be fairly useless. We can easily get into a bad situation at the outset with those two techs if we have no camp resources - basically, we have to train warriors while we tech both a religion AND an improvement tech, which means a long wait for the first worker. I dislike that, though at least we don't have any issues banging out a warrior or two for the first builds to protect us from a rush.

That said, the rathauses will help a lot with the increased maintenance costs. If espionage is enabled, we're going to want to prioritize courthouses moreso than usual, given how much talk is going on about that, so it's nice to have a UB in that slot. We can always mix HRE with an Org leader for nice synergy. "Darius of HRE" has a ring to it... Though if we really want a religion, India would be my first choice, keeping an Org leader like Darius to help with courthouse spamming.

[DNK]

I feel the real strengths of Org aren't the reduced civic maintenance (about 3-6% tech rate by mid-game ime) but the cheap, very useful buildings it offers that will be spammed in most cities: lighthouses, courthouses, and factories. I mean, by the time we get to the size where Org is going to really shine, we're already basically in a great position - I want something that's going to ensure we GET to that position in the first place.

There's no point in discussing factories in a game that likely will be decided before we get to the late Industrial age, and then lighthouses are going to depend on our start and the map script. Now, if it's toroidal, and if Esp is enabled, we're going to be putting a lot of emphasis on courthouses, so they're almost doubly important. Basically, we're saving 5% tech rate each turn plus 60 hammers per city, and a few more hammers on our coastal cities. If we're heavily coastal, then Darius is a great pick: tons of extra hammers, and it will really boost the growth curve of coastal cities when lighthouses are a very early build (and in the game in general, they're early).

[Ben Kenobi]

Ozzy, I'm not voting, just listening and learning. Please don't hold up your decision because of me. Personally, I like huts, I think we can do well with them.

[mzprox]

when we are talking about UBs
the best I think:

Carthage's harbor: one extra trade route, depends on map and always war settings ofc.
Aztec's sacrificial altar: this would be my pick
Dutch's dike: huge med-late game bonus
Portugal's custom house

+2 happnies UBs , like India, Ottoman, dunno who else

I don't consider Org to be a strong trait at all. even if it shines later for an expansionist civ, i prefer traits which makes me stronger in the beginning. The potential to first pick wonders, bonuses is much bigger than few percent money later.

[DNK]

Yeah, taking the Aztecs means we can avoid an ORG trait, basically, as the courthouse is already 25% discounted with them. That plus the fact we're not likely to see many coastal cities in such a large game (plus pangaea was kicked around) and late-game bonuses aren't very important imo (cheap factories here), means ORG won't be very useful then (maybe 5% increase in tech, that's it). Even if we can't get the Aztecs, I'm not sure it's worthwhile. If we do get a civ-heavy pangaea, CRE isn't so bad an idea, as we're likely to have a lot of culture war going on, and it will be vital in the early game in taking territory and defending it.

I love the Incan UB - basically a CRE trait that gets built ~1st in every city, though the UU is pretty lame.

Something to think about ORG, though: if we do a toroidal map, we may find typical expansion leaves us more encumbered with -gold upkeep for city maintenance such that the ORG trait will allow us to maintain a typical expansion rate even though the map wrap has no bearing on civic upkeep. If we go toroidal, we should either get a UB courthouse or UB that increases gold production.

Ikhanda with an AGG trait would be a nice touch (-20% maint barracks)
Mint with IND (if we want to go the wonder route, we get +10% gold from this forge)
Rathaus and Sacrificial Altar, of course
Stock Exchange (Get redcoats in the deal)

[Calanthian]

Come to think of it:

Zulu might be a great choice..

impi:
* can move 2 through any terrain > so in fact further as horses
* later on these can be upgraded to rifflemen etc. which can move 2 through any terrain. This can allow for some surprise attacks..

Ikhanda
* -20 % maintenance.

So if unrestricted leaders: a Zulu Lizzy would be great!

[OzzyKP]

The Impi's main purpose seems to be an early choke/rush though, which I don't think we'll do. I'd think a mid-game UU would be more useful to us. But I suppose if we keep the promotion after upgrading then it'd still be good.. The Ikhanda is good though.

[mzprox]

Hope we can soon decide on settings so we can start planing-we should know if we canchoose leaders/civs and how, will it be unrestricted or not..

One important thing I think we should talk about: should we propose to ban early rushes for the first x turns?
I've never saw this to be an issue, and certainly not that much in diplogams where early kills are not allowed.
I'm actually talking about two different situations.

1, to kill someone with your starting warrior- 98% of the time (at least the good players) will build worker/workboat first and send their unit to explore (or if they have scout it doesnt really mtter what they do with it) and from then it's only luck if they can find an opponent's worker building city and then it1s game over for that civ. no skill at all, pure luck. the attacker has also left his capital undefended. If you started building a warrior and not worker you fall behind seriously. thi was always a big question for me how players handle this situation. prposed setting is. no war declaration in the first 30 tuns. it would help a bit.

2, is the proper early rush with many units.. i don't like the gamble factor in these wars, but don't think we could get a rule against it.

toughts?

[OzzyKP]

I suppose you could float the idea, but I seriously doubt they'll go for it. Our opponents are the types to love those early rushes.

[mzprox]

yeah, I know.. quite pointless as I've said as it doesn1t prove how good or bad a team is.