Destiny of Empires [Diplo Game] [Organization Thread]

[LzPrst]

In the last few weeks you said something about how in previous games someone almost made you ulcer and you were mad at the game. Beside learning a new word in English, I thought to myself "Well, this guy is real diplo-player - he takes the game personally, he takes the blows of the game, and yet he plays and survives, he is survivor" But just now you have proved me wrong - now you say you actually enjoyed those past games, contrary to this last one. But what happened to your nation in this game?

Well the difference between those games and this one was that I was not ganked from every direction. In those games I usually squared off against 1 big civ and lost. Here it has repeatedly been 3v1. The top 3 vs 1 mid-sized nation.

China-Japan-Inca (that is what it looked like) on one side. Russia-Arabia+++ on another, no room to expand, no friends to make, no hope for anything. It was just hopeless. Every friend I tried to make spurned me, and every friend I had made disappeared. I was friendly with you, but concerned that you were becoming too powerful, that concern cost me everything I had built. I was friendly with Neandor, but that player disappeared for a long time because of OOC reasons. I was friends with Arabia, but they disappeared as well. I tried making friends with other civs, but my position made me completely irrelevant. So in summary, the reason I got fed up with this game is because I saw top players keep stepping on mid-range players. Russia, England, Ottoman, Arabia, Inca vs Neandor, France and Vikings. Russia via proxy Ottomans against America? Russia via proxy Japan against me. Russia against Aztecs!?

From my perspective it seemed as if you had gone completely off the powercrazy deep end and were using your allies to smash every potential threat that could ever arise. Maybe that was the plan, if so it was a good plan, but it made for a crappy game for the rest of us. It made it seem very much as if the game was already decided, that the alliances were set and would not change, and that you were going to win as your alliance was clearly the stronger. Everything after that was just waiting for the inevitable. That is why I lost interest in this game. The only reason I stayed was because I wanted to make China pay. Success. It cost me everything India had. The second part of my plan was to take whatever army I could draft (I planned somewhere like 50-60 rifles) and give them to someone who would attack you, as I knew for some time that it was you who supplied Japan with Rifles.

The real reason I quit here is because the only challenge to your alliance was Neander, and he left because he, saw the futility of the situation, as do France and Vikings. We honestly believe that the diplomatic deadlock has caused the game to end with you as the winner. None of us see any other potential outcome. So why should we keep playing? It is like chess, if you are check mate in 3 moves, why move the last 3 moves? All your challengers saw checkmate in 3. Just because you didn't see it, didn't mean it wasn't there.

[Dubhghlas]

My only commentary about all this is:

1) I hate people who quit when they are losing. It's the same sort of childish thing my brother did when he was 7 and my sister and I were in our teens, and he couldn't handle losing. Suck it up, play it out the best you can; you have a responsibility to everyone else that comes from having agreed to participate. If you need a "time out" to cool down from unhappiness, ask for it.

2) Static alliances in long-term MP strategy games will kill a game off quicker than anything. The feeling that you cannot accomplish anything because A and B are in lock-step 'til the end of time leaves people frustrated. I've played any number of Europa Universalis 2 games that fell victim to this problem, and recall one duo of players who no one would initiate a game with because they were good and always teamed up together. This game would have survived if the alliances hadn't lasted so long, which, btw, they never do in real life, so it's important in a good diplo-game to be certain to change things up. I would have loved seeing a sudden, devastating attack on Russia from the Ottomans, with everyone in Europe and Asia scrambling to see which side of the fight they were going to join (do we take on the Russians who we have grievances against, even though they might survive the attack and come after us? Or do we flip our position and attack our former allies in the rear when they go to join the dog pile?). Or the Axis could have split apart and it would have been interesting to see if the Russians and the Turks would have remained monolithic, or perhaps the Turks and the damn-Anglais could have teamed up and then found that Catherine had other ideas...

3) If you cannot play MP without letting your emotions get involved, you don't belong in MP games. You have to imagine us all sitting in the same room, playing the game together, planning on sitting down afterward and talking about it over a beer. Sadly, the proper emotions for the game appear not to have existed much in Europe and Asia; I will hold up the North/South American sphere of influence as having at least had people who, for the most part, could separate the in character commentary and in game results from their out of character viewpoints regarding other players.

4) I consider the unraveling of the game and the end of voting and score-keeping per the games rules to be linked inextricably. As long as people had a monthly reminder that the winner of the game was not the person with the biggest, baddest army, but the person who's diplomacy and story-writing won the most plaudits, we were able to overlook many episodes of emotional unhappiness at in game reversals. But the whole thing came apart in July, and since then, too many were too focused on the in game success of the Russians to let the game be fun for them. Probably, someone should have stepped up and taken over Robert's duties in getting the votes done, etc.

Just my two cents.

[LzPrst]

I did approached Mongolia and offered them help in fighting China. Yes, it was not much I could have done, but starting to plan something sometimes leads you to something big. Rebuffing all means nothing. Then I decided to reach out for you - tell us - did I approached you, asking you if you are willing to stand against China with my help? Did I ever proposed to you to arm you with Rifles and you were supposed to transfer those rifles to Mongolia, while arming yourself to assault the Chinese too? Did I? Yes, I did. And what you did? Said me this is too big risk for you and you have to consider it more. And you never came back to me, but started to state you are friend with Neandor and started to talk the Japanese in attacking England, as they did not had already 3 major military powers beating them badly in Europe and in the Pacific.

England weeped over to me they were going to lose what was left theirs in the Pacific and then I took the things in my hands.

Interestingly enough, you did suggest that. But with what was it, 5 rifles. Or six. You were going to send 6 rifles to me, then have me attack China, but wait, those rifles were supposed to go not to me, but to Mongolia. Yes, Mongolia and India would go against China, with their pathetic armies against the Chinese advanced superpower with 6 rifles. I was supposed to get those rifles, then send them on a 10 turn walk to gift them to Mongolia. Nowhere in the world was that a good plan. It was pure nonsense. And allow me to ask you, after your successful war against the Neandor, did I ask for you to invade and destroy China with my help? Did I say that I would do anything, pay any cost to have them destroyed? Did I make it abundantly clear that I had no real quarrel with you, but with China? Then you gave Japan 20 rifles and sent them after me when I was trying to pull together a defence against the Russian behemoth.

As for hitting England when they were down, England had way more cities than me, better tech, better economy, better everything and a huge alliance behind them, when I made my plan with Japan. Hell, Iceland was a better city than anything I had. They had half of south America as colonies and others as well and stood to be retaking their homeland. They were the top civ for a long time, had an impressive tech lead, so I figured they could live without some crappy dry Australian colonies. It was a case of 2 crap civs, India and Japan, making a grab against a top civ, England for some of their colonies that were literally as far from the English homeland as they could possibly be. Nothing was unfair about it. But then you stepped in as you say. Deadlocking the situation causing Japan to fail (the incompetence is mindboggling) forcing them to go elsewhere for colonies. Against me, which you supported. It was wrong for England as a top civ to be booted down to a mid-level civ, but it was right for Japan with yours and others' aid to boot a mid-level civ to a near unplayable one?

that is how I see it.

[LzPrst]

I tried setting things up for a greater Pacific group, but both Japan and China were fairly uninterested in communicating with me, so it never got off the ground either. Okay.

I guess I didn't count. I tried several times to make friends with you after our initial words, yet you kept spouting your "those islands belong to Japan and China" routine, which if they were not even responsive to your communiques, I have to ask why the hell did you insist on that crap? I was desperate to make friends, but you wanted only to be allied to China who was big and powerful. That is how I saw it and nothing I saw indicated anything else. Keep in mind that I could have no idea of the details of your diplomacy, throughout the game I have seen the following: You support China. You support Russia. You support Japan. You support China. Against a pitiful little civ: India. That is how I saw your actions. As if any of those civs needed support to screw me. I saw this as poor sportsmanship, as the strong ganging up on the weak. How would you see it from my perspective?

It was one of the many things that made me feel completely isolated. I was trying to create a pacific alliance to balance China, with you and Japan, the latter which I supplied with ships and weapons so that we could take some colonies from England. And the result was that they completely backstabbed and betrayed me when I was moving troops to defend myself against the Russians who threatened to invade! The greatest superpower, threatening to invade a 3rd rate civ unless I pay what would have been for me 12-13 turns of money. And it turns out it was all a ploy for while Russia threatened to invade a minor crappy civ, they were arming Japan to invade me and take my colonies, and then Japan gets help from the number 2 superpower, China, all the while being supplied with ships from you Inca!

I'm surprised I stayed in the game as long as I did.

As for all manner of personal loss, my condolances.

[Ottoman Empire (DoE)]

Post Game report?

[Vikings (DoE)]

OK, but what type of games you really enjoy?

Heh, what I mean is that I'm too thin-skinned. Logically I know that things like what the Chinese said about me are in-game, in-character stuff, but emotionally I found it difficult separate that from real-life. It felt like an attack on my personal character. Combine that with the fact that, based on events and alliances as they are now, I didn't feel like our side could beat the Russian alliance, and there isn't any other side that could come in and challenge them once we fell. To me, that meant the game was over and I mostly checked out. The latter is why I don't want to play this game anymore, the former is why I won't be joining any more diplogames.

I do enjoy Civ4 (there is no Civ5 yet as far as I'm concerned), but my enjoyment has waned a bit of late. It happens to me every so often.

[Russia (DoE)]

As for the game itself, it was fun to start (well, my start, in June). I just came to realize that it is not the right type of game for me. Or I'm not the right type of person for this type of game.

OK, but what type of games you really enjoy?

[Vikings (DoE)]

Guys (and I mean those who left too) - no kidding - it was so enjoying game.. I could never imagine how good, thrilling and satisfying this game will be. It was honor for me to to play with you all. So intriguing... And much of a fun.

Hats down for the great game and the great time we had spent with it.

I am eager to continue it, but I want to hear the other's opinion on this too. If this WPC game is falling apart, we can take few players from there? I think Azteca will be willing to play some of the major powers too - Neandor or if the Viks insist on quitting. France will have to say if they will keep playing.

When/if the Axis is no more, the things can develop quite unexpectedly. New big players, new ambitions, the newly fed up India and Mongolia ... Who knows... This is something like after the WW2 in the real history. Ex allies are turning against each- other, new blocks are forming, etc, etc... So far it was a great game - maybe there is still something about it?

Yes I'm intent on leaving. I only stayed for Neandor, and I believe France did the same. France will not be back from his vacation until the 19th so he won't be able to answer you until then. If Azteca or someone else wants to take over for all of us I have no problems with that and will give him our passwords.

As for the game itself, it was fun to start (well, my start, in June). I just came to realize that it is not the right type of game for me. Or I'm not the right type of person for this type of game.

[Russia (DoE)]

Guys (and I mean those who left too) - no kidding - it was so enjoying game.. I could never imagine how good, thrilling and satisfying this game will be. It was honor for me to to play with you all. So intriguing... And much of a fun.

Hats down for the great game and the great time we had spent with it.

I am eager to continue it, but I want to hear the other's opinion on this too. If this WPC game is falling apart, we can take few players from there? I think Azteca will be willing to play some of the major powers too - Neandor or if the Viks insist on quitting. France will have to say if they will keep playing.

When/if the Axis is no more, the things can develop quite unexpectedly. New big players, new ambitions, the newly fed up India and Mongolia ... Who knows... This is something like after the WW2 in the real history. Ex allies are turning against each- other, new blocks are forming, etc, etc... So far it was a great game - maybe there is still something about it?

[Russia (DoE)]

Oh, come on! At the end we all will end up clapping hands and hugging each-other instead of bombarding, sinking and shooting at each-other!

[Vikings (DoE)]

Hey, Vik, sorry to hear life wasnt always kind to you and the ones you love and especially lately, man.

Thanks.

[Russia (DoE)]

Hey, Vik, sorry to hear life wasnt always kind to you and the ones you love and especially lately, man.

[Ottoman Empire (DoE)]

Thank you to Inca for your kind words, and @ Viking, yea sorry I just read what you wrote, thanks. I x-posted with you so I just read it. So sad to hear about your family's losses. Thanks Russia too.

[Russia (DoE)]

I knew about some of the problems Turkey had, and I knew England had problems too.

Yeah, thats what I call real players, kudos to you guys.

[Inca (DoE)]

And, yes, Russia, it was a very good relationship and that's why I mostly kept loyal to it, even if lately I have been wading back into independent waters for a variety of reasons. Again, Russia offered a good deal that was mutually beneficial and didn't require me to subjugate myself so much as complement each other. There's a reason they've "won" (even if so much of it is luck and a few bad plays), and that has to have something to do with it.