Destiny of Empires [Diplo Game] [Organization Thread]

[Russia (DoE)]

Oh, dear

A lot of things to address, very strong passages and few not so strong.

Should I comment/reply to everything? No. Shall I address some? Sure, why not.

[Vikings (DoE)]

No surprise that the Vikings didn't read my post. Once again a "boo hoo, we're so poor, we're so friendless, we're so backwards, those big mean Russians are ruining everything". This game has NEVER been decided. Certainly not lately. Not that you seem to care what I have to say, but we were all freaking out about everything you guys were doing. Every wrong move on our part seemed ready to doom us. We seemed to always be on the brink of handing everything over to you. We were fairly matched, and you had numerous opportunities to take the upper hand. Indeed it seemed quite likely that you would.

The fact that you didn't (or haven't yet) is not because things were "stacked against you" or we were being "unfair" or "exploiting game mechanics" or any other bull **** excuses you use. You had every opportunity, but we just out played you. If you managed to upgrade that whole fleet, things would have been much different. Or if you hadn't lost that whole Aztec fleet earlier, things would be much different. But you lost. You were outwitted. That isn't unfair. That is how the game is played.

I didn't whine that you had stacks of riflemen when I barely had muskets. That wasn't "unfair". You didn't use an "exploit". I focused on expanding overseas and you focused on building an advanced military to attack me. It sure felt rotten to lose, but there wasn't anything unfair about it. When I ended up winning, it wasn't because I was being unfair either.

Get off your high horse. Jeez, this is why I don't want to game with you anymore.

Obviously you didn't read the post I wrote either. I wasn't whining, I was stating how we felt about how events played out. Go back a bit and actually read the part where I said you guys won. YOU WERE BETTER THAN US! I've been saying that for weeks and I get blasted as a quitter. The ****ing game is over and has been since the end of the Great War.

Apparently you're better people too, or so you seem to believe. I could state some "issues" I've been going through too like you and the Turks did. But I won't bother. Apparently yours are the only legitimate "issues" since you felt the need to bring them up.

As to attacking you with rifles when you had muskets, that was not me that was my predecessor. By the time I took over there was nowhere left to expand beyond taking someone else's territory.

[England (DoE)]

No surprise that the Vikings didn't read my post. Once again a "boo hoo, we're so poor, we're so friendless, we're so backwards, those big mean Russians are ruining everything". This game has NEVER been decided. Certainly not lately. Not that you seem to care what I have to say, but we were all freaking out about everything you guys were doing. Every wrong move on our part seemed ready to doom us. We seemed to always be on the brink of handing everything over to you. We were fairly matched, and you had numerous opportunities to take the upper hand. Indeed it seemed quite likely that you would.

The fact that you didn't (or haven't yet) is not because things were "stacked against you" or we were being "unfair" or "exploiting game mechanics" or any other bull **** excuses you use. You had every opportunity, but we just out played you. If you managed to upgrade that whole fleet, things would have been much different. Or if you hadn't lost that whole Aztec fleet earlier, things would be much different. But you lost. You were outwitted. That isn't unfair. That is how the game is played.

I didn't whine that you had stacks of riflemen when I barely had muskets. That wasn't "unfair". You didn't use an "exploit". I focused on expanding overseas and you focused on building an advanced military to attack me. It sure felt rotten to lose, but there wasn't anything unfair about it. When I ended up winning, it wasn't because I was being unfair either.

[Arabia2 (doe)]

Ic and ooc getting a bit mixxed here. Just one bit to the exploit or strategy matter: We are somewhat modeling real world events in the game, it would never happen that Rambo would sink 15 destroyers while a big allied army just watch by (Rambo would at least kill them too ) So it is an exploit of world mechanism, also a strategy which is not an illegal move and I did not say I wouldn't use similar tactics when in need.
I too think there was too much complaining in the game, and I also think that players should had shown more responsibility for the balance of the game.
About villainy: being an IC villain is not a bad ting at all. In Iran's perspective Ottomans were evil IC but for this discussion there is the IC/story thread.

[Russia (DoE)]

I'm back!

Have full 12-pack of beer, some fancy Belgium cow dried meat and a whole 20-scrolls civ-related text to read! Wohooo!!

(btw, Robert, you can put some more emoticons)

[Vikings (DoE)]

I never would have been so hard in the Russia sphere if England hadn't lost its core cities. Yeah, I gave them massive assistance during that war and later that was probably fairly important (I hope) in their successes, but I also was considering playing both sides a la the US in the beginning of the World Wars. ACE, however, just wasn't interested. Okay.

I did court you before the beginning of the Great War (my Ragnarok speech and subsequent PMs) as I courted everyone who wasn't a completely confirmed Russian ally. At the time Neandor was too busy IRL and France was on vacation so I was the only one that could. You told me that you were already dealing with the Russians and wouldn't help beyond offering us poor terms for purchasing units from you. We couldn't take that because we needed our gold for rushing toward railroad and our own upgrades.

After that it seemed like you went farther and farther into the Russian camp. I know France mentioned some stuff a while back about contacting you for balancing the scales, but I'm not sure exactly what that was. In any case, to us, you seemed to be a confirmed Russian ally and we stopped bothering to contact you about joining us.

When the Turks invaded the Americans and Aztecs, the ACE sent help in the form of units and we left it to the two of them to court you and the Natives since the ACE hadn't had much luck courting either of you. We couldn't do more than send units because we couldn't directly attack them (because of the great War treaty). The Natives then joined the Russian alliance after we'd sent them several PMs about our intentions (mistakenly believing they would help their fellow American continent nations). Word from the Aztecs was that you were saying you might help them, but then they saw several of your units directly in Turk employ and several more (in your employ) that were in the cities the Turks took. So no, we never felt we could trust you. It seemed to us like you were still part of the Russian alliance and you were trying to play us.

At that time the Russian alliance seemingly consisted of the Russians, the English, the Turks, the Incas, the Native Americans, the Mali, the Zulus, and the Arabians (this was before the new player took over). That is 4 of the 6 top score players, and the Chinese player (another in the top 6) stated I was persona non grata too for finishing my predecessor's deal with the Indians, which also brought in the Japanese against us.

And finally, you snuck a settler on to that oil just north of America. I was diplomatically asking them if I could settle that territory instead of just taking it, so it took me a few extra turns and you beat me to it by one turn because you didn't ask first. That in effect led us all to the action of the Tlaxcala gifting (which failed because of NA culture and Russian/Turk determination that we not have oil) since none of us had oil except for the Aztecs who were nowhere close to the destroyer tech. Again this was before the new Arabian player joined. We had no other choices in the game because the entire rest of the world was against us and already had oil and had started upgrading destroyers.

[Inca (DoE)]

Just to note two things. I know that someone in ACE did want a contract, but it was at a bad time when I was already committed, so I suppose I can get that put against me. Likewise, the Aztec player wanted me to help them go off invading people somewhat at random, which wasn't really what I was looking for in an alliance. But then, I guess I'm a super-loyal "carebear" in this game, so there's that issue, but then I've been fully content to be so in this game, and have enjoyed it despite never really committing a single unit to combat (not that I clearly am incapable of fighting in MP games if I want, as the WPC game would show if it ever gets anywhere), so I'm not going to apologize for that. If I wanted a game where power and score were important, I'd be playing another PB game somewhere else.

[Ottoman Empire (DoE)]

Please see my retraction above. I misunderstood something and thought you had logged in after we did in the same turn. I went back and re-read some posts and realized my error.

Thanks being the villain is bad enough without being accused of Doublemoves

[Inca (DoE)]

In this game there was never any possibility of being anything but a puppet to the major powers, you, China and Inca made sure of that.

For the record, I never had alliance (or much contact) with the original Chinese player. I also wasn't going to do very much in that war, not even blockade (as it would not be IC to do so). That was a 100% IC move that was going to have a minimal impact on the war. I have no ground units to commit, being as I am a fairly pacifist nation ("passive puppet" okay). You see the support I've given to Japan and Arabia so far? That was what China was going to get (and it's over, my units are heading home save the ships I've sent to help you and Arabia clear your waters).

But, we've had this conversation before, and it ended with me sucking a dick if I recall, so what's the point? Yeah, let's talk about bad sportsmanship...

I've tried lately to keep things balanced, create IC approaches to bring some independence and "fairness" to the game, but it's been fairly coldly received, with Arabia being the only one signing onto the CIJ (perhaps it was just too complicated), and God knows their actual reasons for it.

I never would have been so hard in the Russia sphere if England hadn't lost its core cities. Yeah, I gave them massive assistance during that war and later that was probably fairly important (I hope) in their successes, but I also was considering playing both sides a la the US in the beginning of the World Wars. ACE, however, just wasn't interested. Okay.

England brought me in, and in order to balance the game (remember when...) I stayed in. The game got "overbalanced" in that respect, okay, and I've been shifting into a more neutral stance since, but I'm still going to be lumped in with the people "ruining the game" because I didn't just jump ship and start supporting ACE and the rest the second things shifted? It's not my personal character, and it wouldn've have been IC either.

Still, I just signed a large arms contract and a tentative resource deal with an ACE ally that hasn't gone down very well with the others in my group and has caused me some significant issues, plus I've offered them upgrades to destroyers (for all the hell that would cause if it ever went through)... But, no, I should've just broke with them completely so that some people who barely spoke to me all game would feel like things were more "balanced" :/

Or was it that I should've set up a regional alliance to create a new factor? You know what, I tried. Two of the three people I was trying to rope in weren't really responsive; the main nation, the Natives, being an extremely passive and pacifistic player compared to me even. What was that alliance ever going to accomplish? Plus the Aztecs were getting steamrolled and had clearly gone hard for the ACE alliance. It wasn't really plausible, plus I could never be on bad terms with England for about 5 solid reasons. I tried setting things up for a greater Pacific group, but both Japan and China were fairly uninterested in communicating with me, so it never got off the ground either. Okay.

This game was far from decided still. Perhaps with that second Turkish coup d'etat it is, perhaps not (congrats on pulling that off twice, btw). I think things were just getting interesting, and it would be a pity to call it.

But, if the game is this unenjoyable for so many key players, then perhaps it is time to call it. Personally, I'm sick of the whining also, but if that's what people are getting out of it, so be it.

Sorry to hear about the personal hardships of England and Turkey's respective human players. I knew things were going rough for the former, but that's still news to me. Thanks for sticking with it guys.

So, this game is fairly toast, the WPC game is dying already, and I'm going to be razed into a smouldering crater in DoF in about two weeks, so it's been fun guys, too bad it's ending

[Vikings (DoE)]

What?!? That is baloney! The Aztecs logged in at the end of the turn, after I had played, and then the next turn they logged in before me and attacked. That WAS a Doublemove, and as the host explained, that is why the game was reloaded.

In the current situation, I logged in at the end of the turn, after you played, and stayed logged in through the turn roll and finished my turn before you. We were not at war and I DID NOT declare war, so there was no Doublemove... Then you logged in AFTER me and finished your turn... THEN, the yum ended... new turn. THEN on the next turn, I logged in before you and declared war and attacked you. That IS NOT a Doublemove! What are you talking about? You played AFTER me last turn and I played before you this turn.

There is no comparison, there is no Doublemove. You just got outmaneuvered... period.

Please see my retraction above. I misunderstood something and thought you had logged in after we did in the same turn. I went back and re-read some posts and realized my error.

[Ottoman Empire (DoE)]

I find it amusing that you are stating that what you did in logging in after we did last turn and then starting off the new turn by declaring war on me isn't a double move when you argued that the same maneuver was a double move when you lost a bunch of units when the Aztecs did the exact same thing a while back. You were quite adamant that was a double move when the Aztecs did it to the point that we reloaded and you were able to get your units back. But now it isn't a double move because you are the one that did it? Yeah, whatever. That amuses me no end. .

What?!? That is baloney! The Aztecs logged in at the end of the turn, after I had played, and then the next turn they logged in before me and attacked. That WAS a Doublemove, and as the host explained, that is why the game was reloaded.

In the current situation, I logged in at the end of the turn, after you played, and stayed logged in through the turn roll... new turn... I then finished my turn before you. We were not at war and I DID NOT declare war, so there was no Doublemove... Then you logged in AFTER me and finished your turn... THEN, the turn ended... new turn (this current turn). THEN on this current turn, I logged in before you and declared war and attacked you. That IS NOT a Doublemove!

So What are you talking about? I played before you last turn, and You played AFTER me last turn and then I played before you this turn. Plus even if I had logged in AFTER you last turn (which I did not, because I was already logged in when the turn rolled) it wouldn't matter one bit, because AFTER I finished my turn and logged out. You logged in and did your moves (like upgrading the ships to Destroyers). So the bottom line is YOU MOVED LAST in the last turn, which means I can move first in this one.

There is no comparison, there is no Doublemove. You just got outmaneuvered... period.

[America (DoE)]

Well then, since everybody seems to be quitting, why not declare war on each other and see what happens I'm up for it, anyone? Yeeeeeehaw!

@ottoman empire: sorry about your parents man, my condolences

[Vikings (DoE)]

And why don't you use all that energy to write good stories instead of Doing all this OOC weeping?

How many times do I have to say it? I...HAVE....NO...INTEREST...IN...THIS...GAME...ANY MORE! The Russian alliance has won the game. You guys won the game a while back. From the moment the English threatened to raze my cities the Russian alliance won the game, we just didn't realize it at the time. I went back down to only 6 cities, the smallest nation in the world, and because of world politics after the cease-fire I had no shot of ever expanding again (except for gifted cities which the Russian alliance has made sure to hold against me and the Aztecs). All I had left was trying to help Neandor win.

So let me say it again: The Russian alliance has won. You guys are better than we are. Satisifed?

Russia has proven they are the best at diplomatic relations by gathering so many allies together. You guys have also proven you are better players with the little things like sinking the Aztec fleet in my harbor. None of us realized that could happen. Neandor and I also didn't think about what would happen if the English declared war on us first, and honestly I didn't think you would declare on me because of your stated in-game declaration about not attacking smaller nations. Yeah, so much for that. Edit: Oops, never mind about the double move thing I was just talking about. I thought you had logged in after we did the upgrade.

The only reason I continued playing was because Neandor asked me to keep playing. Frankly, I don't really care if you guys continue to badmouth us and call us poor sports. I don't see how continuing to play when I have no desire to play and no desire to write stories about it is anything but an exercise in futility. The game is done, and the only reason you want us to continue is so you can keep writing your stories.

When I took over the Vikings back in June it was to try a new experience. I've since learned that this type of game is not for me. I will never play in a diplogame again.

[Ottoman Empire (DoE)]

I don't know why do you protest against when I say "abusing game mechanics", is it because maybe I have used a wrong word? Does exploiting game mechanics sounds better? Yes city gifting for upgrade troops is an exploit too... but still the Ottmans did the biggest impact on the game using tricks like this.

This is a great question Arabia and perfectly illustrates my point... There IS NO "abusing", there IS NO "exploiting", there is only PLAYING the game according to the rules and according to the way the game works. You say "abuse" and "exploit" because you want to use a negative word to describe what I did, as if it was unfair somehow.

What bugs me to no end, is that when people try to say something is an "abuse of mechanics" or an "exploit", what they almost ALWAYS mean, is that the player did something THAT THE AI WOULDN'T DO. When you really analyze their complaint, it always boils down to that. The AI is predictable, humans are not. Humans use innovative and imaginative tactics that the AI does not, and when people do something you weren't ready for, you call it an "exploit." But thats BS, because that is the WHOLE POINT of playing humans. If you want your opponent to play like a stupid AI, then play the AI.

If you want to say Turkey is the "Master" of something, say "Turkey is the Master of brilliant strategy or tactics" or you could just say "Turkey is the Master of owning peoples @$$es in cIV". See the difference? What you said is horses#!t, sore loser crap. Give credit where it is due, and don't blame your losses on "game mechanics." Blaming "game mechanics"is like blaming the referee, or the umpire, or the sun, or the weather. When you get outplayed, its because you got outplayed not because of "the way civ works."

BTW, I believe that the Ottomans made some bones a little while back about not attacking Civs that were smaller than they were...so then they attacked me. Make of that what you will.

Yes, Vikings you are absolutely right about this, and if you stick around to see it, there is a very well developed storyline that will address exactly that issue you raised. I'm impressed that you caught it first, since no one ever comments on my stories, everyone just complains about my in game action

Which brings up another thing... France has pointed out time and time again that nothing fuels discussion and story telling like War. Look how much talking is going on right Now! So why doesn't anybody say "Thanks Turkey for keeping the game interesting and giving us something to talk about", instead of all this whining and weeping?

And why don't you use all that energy to write good stories instead of Doing all this OOC weeping?

[England (DoE)]

England, even after losing your core territories you were in a better position than many other civs.

So losing a stack of ships is more crippling than losing your capitol, your best cities, and most of your economy? Good to know.