Destiny of Empires [Diplo Game] [Organization Thread]

[England (DoE)]

Sorry to hear about your parents.

[Ottoman Empire (DoE)]

Oh and what was going on in my RL when I was getting backstabed by Israel and crushed by France? What have I gone through in the last 12 months? Both my parents died of cancer, I lost a job and failed a licensing exam... but this game has been great, and so through all that I did not quit or give up or say "It's not fun anymore because I'm losing"

So yea I can sympathize with England and say, this whining and quitting is the poor sportsmanship, not anything we did.

[Vikings (DoE)]

Since Neandor was the only reason I was still playing the game...I'm out. I imagine France is too, but I can't contact him to tell him Neandor quit. He felt the same way as I have for the past few months too, he just didn't post about it. That is why he stopped writing stories.

BTW, I believe that the Ottomans made some bones a little while back about not attacking Civs that were smaller than they were...so then they attacked me. Make of that what you will.

[Arabia2 (doe)]

..putting in a puppet for Arabia..

I refuse this.. actually they were my puppet, as the rest of the world. I declare that I had won, or would had if we continued, so we can make a vote: who thinks Arabia has won, 1 so far.

Anyway I don't know why do you protest against when I say "abusing game mechanics", is it because maybe I have used a wrong word? Does exploiting game mechanics sounds better? Yes city gifting for upgrade troops is an exploit too, but even just upgrading troops for a civ while it ignores her own research completely. These exploits are not forbidden in the game though (there are some which are). I called Ottomans the masters of these exploits though the first time it was a plain error by Azteca/vikings, the second time it was the intentional or unintentional exploit of the defensive pact mechanism, but still the Ottmans did the biggest impact on the game using tricks like this.

[LzPrst]

England, even after losing your core territories you were in a better position than many other civs.

Besides, I dont know who you are talking to, because I am not a part of the Neander alliance, I have tried this entire game to play as an independent. the reason I am quitting is because I realize that is impossible and joining one of the established alliances that routinely act like asses against other players does not appeal to me.

Finally it was actually me (India) that persuaded Japan to attack you, we were gonna take your cities and split them between us. It had nothing to do with Neandor.

[Ottoman Empire (DoE)]

The trick is that all of us should actively work on to make the game fun-even if that means that we do "illogical" things in character, just for ooc reasons.

Like using a Great General to sunk the Azteca fleet (when any Archer would have done the trick), knowing he would be killed , and thus killing one of my main characters... for the SOLE purposes of giving the Aztecs some opportunity for a moral victory and creating a good storyline to amuse my fellow gamers?

But nobody says "Oh good story" or "Wow! Clever tactic, you got me good!" Or maybe "wow brilliant move! I did not even realize you could do that! Thanks for teaching me some good CIV tactics!" Nope... All I ever hear is "Turkey is abusing mechanics, Turkey is poor sportsmanship, Turkey is a puppet, Turkey this, Turkey that..."

I get it, Turkey is seen as the villain of the game despite the fact that we are nowhere near a top-ranked superpower, not even top 5, barely even top 10, and we were once ranked 2nd to last after France and Israel outplayed us (great play you guys on that again BTW) and kicked the living s#!t out of Turkey in the Great War, all this time using diplomacy and strategy and close relationships with allies and Micro and great people etc to crawl back up the ladder, and still the whole world hates us, fine...

But to say I did something wrong or poor sportsmanship is just flat out untrue and unfair. I supported India every step of the way when no one else, not even Indias so called allies would, and still India hates and accuses me. India was BEGGING for a mediator and NO ONE stepped up except me. I supported Indias war on China snd defended their actions as fair, but I still get accused of abuses?

Whatevers

[England (DoE)]

First of all, awesome work Russia/Ottomans.

Second, RELAX everyone.

Third... sadly, with everyone being cry babies and quitting, this amazing game may very well be over...

You guys accuse our side of "abusing game mechanics"? Give me a break. If you think sinking ships at port is "abusing game mechanics" then surely giving away a fully developed city in order to take its oil is as well. So is upgrading 30 frigates to destroyers in a small 1 population city on the coast of Africa in one turn. Could that happen in the real world? Hell no. But it is part of the game, and you guys surely take advantage of everything you can to help your situation in the game. So do we. The only reason you guys are upset is that this time you are on the losing side of it.

Sorry to break the news, but yes, often in diplogames there are winners and losers. If you are comfortable winning, you have to be comfortable losing as well. And heck, the Axis hasn't even lost any cities. You complain about losing ships? ****, do you guys want to see how many ships I've lost in this game? Gimmie a break.

No one has lost more in this game then me. You didn't see anything wrong when the Vikings, French & Neandor were ganging up on me. When they took my capitol city, destroyed more than half my economy, took five of my six most important cities, did I quit? Did I pout and throw a tantrum about abuse of game mechanics? I was pretty damn upset and distraught. I put a lot of work into building up my civ and it was heart breaking to see it all destroyed by a surprise attack by someone I had never had any real contact with. Someone with advanced technology that I was absolutely powerless to resist.

Plus I was going through some crazy stuff in the real world and it was too much to lose my entire empire, lose the girl I thought I would marry, and very nearly lose the job I've held for 12 years all at the exact same time. I doubt ANYONE in this game went through what I've gone through over the last few months. So I took some time off.

But I didn't give up. I didn't throw a tantrum in the forum. That's the beauty of diplogames. True to the name, diplomacy is the most important part of these games. When I was fearing an attack by the Vikings, Russia & the Ottomans both reached out to me about their fears about being attacked by the Neandor. I arranged a three-way alliance between us to defend ourselves from the Axis. It was a natural fit.

Russia proved to be a master at diplomacy and assembled an amazing coalition to defend ourselves. Yet in spite of that, the Axis kicked our ass. I was crippled by the surprise attack on my homeland and was limited in my ability to contribute. The Ottomans found themselves stripped of all their African territory. The Neandor took half my Australian cities. They convinced the Japanese to go after more of my Asian cities. Israel betrayed us and destroyed the Russian/Ottoman army in Africa. Holy **** things looked grim. Did we throw a fit? No. We played on.

After a great deal of planning we won. Whether we out strategized you, out bluffed you, out built you, or out negotiated you, the fact remains is that after losing almost everything, we ended up winning the war. But what did that great victory mean? After being set back a hundred turns by slavery and losing all my most important cities (and all their infrastructure) and neglecting tech for the whole war, did I demand a crippling peace? No. Hell, I STILL lost territory in the war. The Axis still got to keep two of my cities in Australia. After all I went through, was this an unfair peace? Yea. I should have made you guys pay. But I didn't. France didn't lose a single city. Neandor GAINED cities. Vikings didn't lose a single city. After all the damage you caused, you got an incredibly generous peace.

Then you spend the whole 50 turns trying to get revenge. Trying to start a proxy war in Africa, trying to get oil out of the Aztecs, trying to destroy China, putting in a puppet for Arabia, etc. You guys whine that the game is settled, but it isn't close. All your moves had all of us terrified that we'd see a replay of the Great War and you'd do even more damage to us this time around. At no point was the outcome decided. It took a lot of frantic planning, scheming and discussions on our end to try and counter all your various moves. At no point did we think we had anything in the bag. It always looked like you guys had the upper hand and we were scrambling to catch up and counter you.

In spite of all you were doing, you kept whining OOC and threatening to quit. So even though it looked to us like you were about to crush us, we felt hamstrung by your OOC complaining. I wanted to sink your entire fleet the moment the peace treaty ended and blockade the entire continent. If this game continues I very well may do that. And IC I'd be 100% justified. My only fear is that you guys would throw another tantrum and quit. Of course you were one turn away from having a fleet as large and advanced as me. I'm sure you wouldn't have felt any hesitation to using that against me. You sure didn't hesitate to destroy my entire homeland at the start of the Great War when you had a technological advantage. Maybe I should have complained and threatened to quit at the time. So even though I very much wanted to attack & blockade you guys, I was on vacation and my subs failed to act... with their inaction you guys got oil. Then the Vikings upgraded their iron clads to destroyers. Then the French were able to upgrade their fleet to destroyers.

Thankfully you guys are dumb enough to keep leaving massive fleets docked in port where we can destroy them.

I know how frustrating that must be to have a loss like that, but come on, everyone here knows that is how the game works. You can blame no one but yourselves. Your OOC complaining and quitting is nothing but poor sportsmanship. You guys are more than willing to defeat us, but not willing to be defeated. That's not fair. I experienced defeat in this game. Crushing defeat. But I kept at it. If what happened to me had happened to any of you guys, you would have quit in a big huff then and there.

So please. Give me a break and relax.

[LzPrst]

I am unable to see where the propaganda ends and where the facts begin.

1. Why would you ask for land? You have the biggest empire in the world.
2. Why would you ask for money? You had allies supplying you with tons of it.
3. Oh wait, you DID ask for money, or rather you extorted it from one of the weakest civs, me.
4. Yes, Mongolia was perhaps not a brillant player, but with the lands they had, how could they have developed? They had no choice but make war against either you or China. Or what would you have done in their position?
5. The same was true for me, what could I do in my position blocked between China and Arabia? I tried several diplomatic ventures to make friends with different civs, but nothing was possible as the set alliances already determined all loyalties.


Edit: Also, I am not quitting becuase I am losing, I am quitting because I have lost. My civ is gone. I have lost everything, I am now completely insignificant even with China. Partly because of your actions supplying Japan with a huge amount of Rifles.

Aslo, I do not see how this game could end in any other way than you winning. I have full espionage on you and I see the amount of troops you are churning out. There is no one that can match that. (I have a very strong spy network). You may not realize that you have won, but you have. Your opponents and challengers all know it.

[Russia (DoE)]

I have to go out, but will come back, read all and answer to all.

And still I will try to make you back in the game and the game going.

The game is not over yet.

[LzPrst]

look, I have played a lot of diplogames and I have taken over as a perm-sub several times for sucky nations that have been totally screwed and made them into fun civs to play. I took over Russia in the previous game after the Persians had (much like you did against Mongolia here) screwed them over by taking their 2nd city early in the game, making Persia a superpower and squeazing the Russian empire into nothing. I did not whine about that, I took over that civ, played them up in the score, made great stories and had great fun, even after losing badly in a war against the same Persian player later. Did I quit then? No, I remodelled my civ into a regional power and with great diplomacy split up and fought my other neighbours rather than fight the local superpower and still had great fun.But the game was never decided and the other contender for the top position never quit because he felt there was no point in going on. In the game previous to that I also took over as a sub for a crappy Russia and played them to the end. In another game, I also played Russia, but quit because the map was ridiculously unbalanced and when my crappy civ was attacked by one of the top dogs in the game I felt the fair play and fun for other civs had been violated far beyond what I could accept. I usually find room to have some fun, but in this game it has been practically impossible. The selfishness of major powers has made that certain.

In this game there was never any possibility of being anything but a puppet to the major powers, you, China and Inca made sure of that. There is no room to manouver, no activity I could take that would allow me to have fun, except sitting in my blocked off subcontinent and hitting end turn. What diplomacy could I make? A third of the players were inactive and played by your alliance as subs. all other civs were part of your alliance making them too domesticated to have any ambition outside of your plans. The other alliance was inactive for large parts of the game, and had I joined them the result would have been equal to joining you.

India was in fact destroyed when Japan sneak attacked me (considered extremely bad form btw in diplogames) with YOUR riflemen. How the hell did you think that playing on after losing everything but SIX cities and squeazed between a superpower that hated me and your Arabian puppet was a likelyhood? What would I be doing for the rest of the game? Developing? Join an alliance as another puppet? Sorry, that is not what I consider fun.

When I finally did something drastic to change that, everything changed. Great fun, but in reality it was not a move towards making the game more fun for me, that train had already left the station. I did what I did because I promised China in the earliest game, that if they blocked me in they would regret it. Had the Chinese player not quit without telling anyone, India would now have been wiped out as the Inca and other major powers came to the aid of a superpower just attacked by a micro-nation. China was still after my attack in a far better position than most other civs and as such there was nothing unfair about my attack.

Here is why I am quitting:
1. The game is over, you have won.
2. You have won in part because of actions I consider poor sportsmanship and by creating a diplomatic deadlock.
3. You have shown poor sportsmanship by making the game unfun to play for several nations, Mongolia, India, Aztecs. Other civs have dropped off as well because they saw no fun in going on.
4. The diplomatic deadlock you have created, in part by your puppets' lack of independent thought has created an alliance that is dominant. As such your alliance does what it pleases, breaks all diplo rules regarding fair play and makes the game unfun for other civs. Attacking America is one such action, putting the Aztecs in a situation where the player would rather suicide than go on is another. Giving Japan two dozen rifleman upgrades to attack me is another. Supporting your allies when they are clearly breaking conduct for good sportsmanship just reinforces the bad atmosphere in this game. That several top civs band together is just ridiculous, top civs should be competing!

Several players have seen that the situation is so deadlocked that there is no point in going on. Those who remain can do little to change that. I agree with them and feel it is time to cut my losses, I have no further interest in this game as it is over.

[mzprox]

And yet, Russia is to be blamed for everything bad in this game.

I can blame many here.. the one who quits becasue of losing interest, the one who quits because thinks the game is decided before it really is, the one who is just too passive, the one who makes or accepts unbalanced alliances, the one who abuses his powers to take the fun from the weaker.. and probably many more
You really should not be so harsh on Russia, if the game sucks then there are always more than one behind it. The trick is that all of us should actively work on to make the game fun-even if that means that we do "illogical" things in character, just for ooc reasons.

[Russia (DoE)]

Double-moving is abusing game mechanics. Leaving 15 destroyers without proper defense is just weak play Dont blame me for playing the game. I blame you all who quit.

Calling a game decided is one thing, rage-quitting for losing 15 units is completely different. It is not fair to accuse me of "abusing game mechanics" when you just lose hope and joy in the game because of the course of the game. And it is supposed to be a game, where the actual win does not matter.

[Russia (DoE)]

And dont you mention Mongolia, you have a lot to learn from them about sportsmanship and good sport player

[Russia (DoE)]

If it is unfair for them to be reduced, how is it no unfair to smash a smaller civ into an even smaller one, something you have participated in numerous times in this game.

Now you got me mad.

Which civs I did smashed?

lets see which civs I did fought and what I did to them:

- Mongolia.
Declared war to them as I was gave my word to China. I attacked Mongolia and captured few workers in the woods. At the second turn I sent a peace proposal to Mongolia. No one replied to me. Then I sent second cease-fire offer. No answer. Then to show some serious intentions, I move near their capitol. They attack my stack and kill ALL but 1 unit. My cities in Asia are open for attack, so I use 2 of my chariots, attack and capture a Mongolian city. I keep the window asking me to raze or capture about 10 hours and sent few PMs to Mongolia asking we to make peace in exchange for sparing the city. No one replies, the end of the turn is near and I raze the city. Then we make peace with Mongolia and I allow them to rebuild the city. So far, I did killed 6 Mongolian citizens. Not like smashing a nation, right? Apparently, the Mongol decision to keep fighting against China in the next few centuries puts them in the dark ages, while all other move forward.

- Neandor, France and Vikings

They attack England with the EXACT knowledge I have defensive agreement with them. I declare war and call so many times for peace. The war escalates and I find myself in the position to drafting/slaving down to 5 all my cities, halving my GNP, taking HUGE money loans and finally we all - Russia, England and Ottomans manage to overwhelm the more advanced and military powerful Neandor, Vikings and France. And what terms I put on them? What I ask for sparing them? I ask most of the English and Ottoman cities to be returned and modest reparations in money to be paid to them two.

What I ask for myself? Fuсk yeah - NOTHING

Not a single tile of land, not a single rubla. As a result, the Axis are decades ago forgot they lost the war and payed reparations, while Russia still repays loans and normally falls behind in tech.

- Aztecs
I ask, even BEG Vikings and Azteca (they can confirm) for the city to be returned and not starved only to get Oil - to me THIS is game mechanics manipulation - to gift a mature city on the other side of the world to get access to Oil. I had warned the Azteca few times and at the end I put 8 infantries and 3 cossacks on 4 galleons and sail the Pacific, capture 2 weakly defended cities and ask the Vikings to return the city. They react at once and offer the city back to Azteca, but Azteca instead of taking back this city, gives away ALL other his cities and quits. After seeing this, I just gave back the cities to Azteca, but he is too guilt to his allies that he lost ALL the 40-50 ships they gifted him and dont want to play the game anymore.

Those are the wars Russia participated. Razed 1 and captured 3 cities in 3 wars. And yet, Russia is to be blamed for everything bad in this game.

Get a clue.

Excuse me - I forgot the Israelian war - there I captured their capitol too, after BEGGING them to pay some money and forget about it - I needed them out of the war and I needed some money for upgrading Ottomans soldiers to Rifles.

So that makes for razed 1 and captured 4 cities in 4 wars.

[Russia (DoE)]

OK, Lz, I never said anything bad about you quatro- or pentro-moved the Chinese. I still did not said anything when you razed their cities - I even supported you in this - already forgot about it? No matter it was harsh and against the rules, I considered it fair.

I do understand pretty well that the game should be fun for everyone and thats why I actually congratulated you, instead of whine how unfair to China this was. I congratulated Israel too when they backstabed and destroyed our army. Now we get to my main point - if someone cant enjoy a game, while losing, this is all his fault he is playing.