The Dance of Civilizations [Diplo Game] [Organization Thread Pt1]

[Toni]

India had all of us on the hook, very early on. What ever the reason skills, location, friendly civ around.

The above doesn't matter, what i like about India is that he actually did work hard to hurt himself down (slaving and other tools) There was a period where he could have taken out half of the civs in the world if he wished.

Come on 20+ riflemen army, while the others have knights LOL Talk about leaving us all in the dust!!!

Well done India, you have won my respect as a player skillwise and attitude as well!!!

I am curious to see who is playing India by the way, any help please??

[Toni]

I am not going to get involved in this, just wanted to say onething.

Byzantium has given everything, as far as I can see.

I agree that Byz put a great efford into building up.

But what maybe many of you do not know, is that not only England did that too, but we had to build a great navy as well, going 0 science in order to rush buy and upgrade units.

That 15 something turns of not researching costed us not having tanks and what not.. Many ships were needed in order to make safe the invasion plans we three had.

So yes Byz did go full max on buildup for the invasion but stood on the science path. KOREA and England had to go full cash plus full military buildup, thus falling behind in science. Still that sacrifice was done to boost our odds vs Indian, and we knew that.

[deity]

I think Persia's actions proves my point that no real effort was made to bring India down because Persia sabotaged it too!

I'll give you that credit And it's consistent with my fundamental point that no one really allied properly to make an effort to stop India winning.

Persia and Byzantium both sabotaged it if you like. There was no serious sustained effort to change the game long status quo.

[Robert]

Sorry for delay ... I've been very busy at work these last few days and my wife has had a health scare.

The initial send for this was forwarded to Robert earlier this week but it was an odd format. I knew the game was coming to an end so haven't been really focussed on this with all the RL concerns.

I've resent the file to Robert now. Very sorry for the delay. Congratulations to the winner

Thanks a lot! I got it, I'll try to post the results today.
I hope your wife will be / is ok!

[Robert]

Can we please break anon now and can you post a full list of players (over time inc subs) and the civs they played? I think it better that we de-brief knowing who the players are. And I'm sure that voting will not be effected by it.

We've made a decision, let's now stick to it.

[Robert]

However I must say that Byzantium's double cross of England is outside the player code that I've always come to play by. In 5 years of civing I've never comer across this, even with players like Frank! And for a diplo game it is incredibly bad imho.

I seriously start to wonder if your memory starts to fail
We've had far worse backstabbings and double crosses.
Byzantium and England weren't even friends or allies.

now back to read the rest of your post

* Secondly by a weak alliance that failed miserably because of Byzantium's approach and strategy - nothing to do with Persia. Byzantium's simplistic approach was to match the alliance troops in a showdown with Indian troops. Now England warned about this and any observer would realise that it was bound to fail. There was no deception, no strategy, nothing. Just land troops like the Australians at Gallipoli and let them get shot. "Oh, and I'll run away and while you protect my withdrawal and you can lose more ships doing so while I stab you in the back."

Nah, that's simply not true.
Byzantium has given everything, as far as I can see.
There are 2 reasons why it failed:

1. because Persia warned India
2. because it all lasted way too long

The entire idea that Byzantium plotted it all is only a conspiracy.
Byzantium first tried to bring down India, then it failed and brought down England.
And it would have tried to bring down Persia as well. (he was already working on it, he only did not know that Persia's allies informed Persia about every move, while Byzantium thought they were plotting together)

I think that the Byzantine ships even carried the English armies home.

And the Cold War shows that these kinds of mutual hate after a joined alliance against a mutual enemy is very possible. If we would have had nukes, Byzantium may not have attacked England.

I think that you approach this situation too much from one side. I defenitely has multiple sides. Not to mention that you give Byzantium way too much double cross/backstabbing credits. Persia deserve those backstabbings / double cross credits much more. We were evil and did plot it all, but nobody hates us It's not fair

Most important of course: none of the not-involved civs blames Byzantium for what it did, only the 2 civs that were affected.
But once again, we've had worse backstabbings. Sparta once gave it's entire defense army to Korea to help Korea against the Mayans, then the Korea allied with the Maya and used the Spartan army to invade Sparta with the Spartan defense army!!!!

There's no double cross/backstabbing ever going to be even close to that backstabbing, and that one was back then totally acceptable by you, so why is this one not
And the 2nd Russian/Persian war in this game is in fact a perfect copy of the English/Byzantium situation now. Persia moved against the powerfull English to bring it down, then the Russians moved agains the poorly defended Persians (whoms army was away) and invaded it.

It's hard, but India won because:
1. India is a good player who prepared itself very well for the invasion
2. India got plenty of time to prepare itself
3. India got way too much information to defend itself

And I think that India 'deserved' to win, because it was the best player.
We challenged him, and he survived. Then he deserves it

What changed during the course of the game? Nothing! Who seriously tried to beat India? No one really.

Ah, c'mon, you guys had this huge invasion! It was a serious attempt.
I think you make the mistake to think that an attempt is only serious if it succeeds.
Well, my attempt to bring down New India was very serious, it failed nonetheless.

[deity]

Subbing and things

Subbing

It was very interesting subbing in this game. As you know I was on travels until October 09 and couldn't start with my own civ but I hope my contribution as a sub has added something to the game. I certainly enjoyed it and am thrilled that we have such a fantastic group of diplo players.

Let's stick together for many more years of fun and arguments! We do get over arguments so we shouldn't be frightened of them but I strongly believe in the DoC rule that says all disputes get settled via PM.

Player code

However I must say that Byzantium's double cross of England is outside the player code that I've always come to play by. In 5 years of civing I've never comer across this, even with players like Frank! And for a diplo game it is incredibly bad imho.

I'll probably get howled down for saying this but it is clear to me that three civs allied to bring down the likely winner as per the diplo faq and historical diplo culture. For one of the alliance to then backstab when all efforts were being made to bring down the likely winner is the WORST thing that could have occurred in a diplo game. From now on all players will double their defensive efforts, reducing their attack capability; and the likelihood of alliances ever working again is seriously diminished. Games will become more introverted if you can't trust allies. Such a cheap trick really.

It is crucial in diplo games that a tear away leader can be brought down.

Too much praise is being heaped on India with silly phrases like "India deserved to win" etc. Whatever happened to competition? I don't think they deserved to win.

The game deserved a contest but this was sabotaged:

* Firstly by a multitude of passive civs around India that allowed them to rocket away with floodplains and an island continent. In addition GP's were freely traded to India and the Natives picking on Korea about their limited expansion is seriously flawed thinking when they are on a landmass and Korea is a small island!

* Secondly by a weak alliance that failed miserably because of Byzantium's approach and strategy - nothing to do with Persia. Byzantium's simplistic approach was to match the alliance troops in a showdown with Indian troops. Now England warned about this and any observer would realise that it was bound to fail. There was no deception, no strategy, nothing. Just land troops like the Australians at Gallipoli and let them get shot. "Oh, and I'll run away and while you protect my withdrawal and you can lose more ships doing so while I stab you in the back."

* Thirdly by England and Korea timidly tip toeing towards a change situation, relying on strong Byzantium leadership, and without really asserting their own tactics.

A korean blockade East and West much earlier on with support from Byzantium and England would have changed much as admitted by India, BUT England and Byzantium played too much "Chamberlain" and kept building. Korea could not do anything unless it had strong alliance support.

Sure India played well in this situation and is laughing all the way to the tower but Raz is right: What changed during the course of the game? Nothing! Who seriously tried to beat India? No one really.

But it was still a great game and by posting this I hope people will consider the future health of diplo games so that we maintain an excitement and a competitive approach that really determines a genuine game.

[deity]

Cyber,

Can we please break anon now and can you post a full list of players (over time inc subs) and the civs they played? I think it better that we de-brief knowing who the players are. And I'm sure that voting will not be effected by it.

Just in case you had nothing to do


And, to butter you up, I must add that the game organisation, monitoring and arbitration were superb. We are so lucky as a group to have you managing all this and hosting as well! I think it is time to give up your day job now... do you have one? Or is baby off to the coal mines already

On top of all this you run Apolyton!

BTW, PYT will take hits away from Polly, maybe you should take him out. I mean over

[Rasputin]

we too need 8 citiys as promised by the map builder , our island home didnt hold that many, and agai nwe did contact all our neighbours early about our expansion to the islands around us. we had no other option but to colonise the islands around us , you had the option to go south as we did eventually and to the islands to the east.

We offered free land in the land we discovered to the south too.

but yep it all my fault apparently.

[Native America (DoC)]

The Natives perspective:

First, we were new to the Diplogame concept.

Second, the native’s terrain seemed overly ‘Impassable Mountain’y

Third we believed the map designer: That each civ could easily build 8 cities.

Unfortunately, for the Natives, and the world later, Korea settled the island to our west, what they called East Province. To us that seemed aggressive: they, the Koreans, already had other areas in which to settle, nor did they talk to us. The effect was that the Natives then needed to expand on their continent fast, north, fast but the land north was not that good.

So when Korea, which had just stolen ‘our’ island, came looking for a diplomatic relationship, the natives were not well disposed.

The net result was that our growth potential was hampered severely. We discussed expansion with the India but they settled a town too far in our area, from our perspective. But because of our limitations we couldn’t do much about it. We received some assurances, from India, about limiting cultural expansion but it meant we needed to look elsewhere for growth.

So eventualy it seemed a good opportunity to colonise the isles to our east, encouraged by India, whom we thought would provide support. But Persia stopped that expansion and India, even if we had asked for assistance, were really in no position to help. (it would have been interesting if we had insisted)

By now, we recognised the limits of India’s support in defence of Sha’ Tao, and Taoist nations, Nil.

So the Korea expansion, combined with India’s Persia’s deal on the New India/Persia isles, ended Native Indian’s potential for alliances, with civs other than India.

Ok, Korea and Persia offered Indians, settlers to barren land northwards and south but growth was slow.

Fourth, by now we reached a good assessment of the tech ability of India.

In short, there was no way we could challenge India, technically or militarily.
.advantage was lost. So no real point to challenge India.

Also India had offered us good tech deal voucher exchanges. But later they were more generous to, we believed, the Mali, than us. Throughout the game, Mali was a strong potential ally but they just didn’t flourish as a civ until late.

Relationships and trade with the other Civs were exploited brilliantly by OzzyKP during his stewardship of the Natives, I should add.

In summary, in my view, Korea’s early greed and Persia’s duplicity, therefore were major factors in curbing Natives willingness to consider alliances against India and therefore to India’s IC win.

But hey that’s life. Good Game.

[Egypt (DoC)]

Sorry for delay ... I've been very busy at work these last few days and my wife has had a health scare.

The initial send for this was forwarded to Robert earlier this week but it was an odd format. I knew the game was coming to an end so haven't been really focussed on this with all the RL concerns.

I've resent the file to Robert now. Very sorry for the delay. Congratulations to the winner

No problem man, we can wait, hope your wife is alright!!!

[Rasputin]

you have lost me there .....

i dont hate anon but i do see no reason for it especialy when palyers meet for beer and inform each other of who they are.

secondly the anon allowed people to bulyl korea with no justification.

if htere was no anon then it would be harder t odo that.

[St Jon]

Ok so what was Koreqas plans and motives all game.

I know you hate ANON but you have illustrated one of the biggest justifications for it in DoC. What can be done to Korea without censure could not be done to Raz or you become a bully. This is a very good reason to never break ANON or you allow OOG reasons to influence sound IG decisions.

[Orb (DoC)]

@ India- if it makes you feel better I had at least 1 spy in every one of your cities I also had spies all over Russia, Ottoman, some parts of Persia, Greece, and Byzantine. Unfortunatly I only used a few and only got to poision you oce.

[WarningU2]

Sorry for delay ... I've been very busy at work these last few days and my wife has had a health scare.

The initial send for this was forwarded to Robert earlier this week but it was an odd format. I knew the game was coming to an end so haven't been really focussed on this with all the RL concerns.

I've resent the file to Robert now. Very sorry for the delay. Congratulations to the winner