The Dance of Civilizations [Diplo Game] [Organization Thread Pt1]

[Rasputin]

I add an other big IF, this one was again unpredicatble by me and that is how strongly you'd co-operate in the game, not just in the war but in the preparation. I saw this kind of co-operation, but it could had been even bigger for example: It would had been enough if one of you concentrate on the air defense/offensive, an other on artilleries etc... it might be too much to count on, but it was still a possiblity and then it would had nulify my tech advantage. In the end it was only the flight tech which you did not have and had effect on military and I hadn't have artilleries.
I was wondering why you missed flight, even if you only have fighters those could had intercept my bombers very effectively. (they have 100% chance to intercept)

You said that you hoped that lots of machineguns would help, the truth is their numbers hardly matters. There is 20% chance they intercept, the only thing is that one unit can do it once/turn so better to have more. but it's a low chance. Even antitanks have 30% chance (wondered why you hadn't send even one)

Bascially 2 nations committed fully to bringing you down the byz didnt. Korea committed outr whole navy and our airships. that wasnt enough for byz he asked for us to send the useless MGers. But as you say none of the anti tank units were landed.

basically you won the battle because byz rushed the attack, used the wrong forces and didnt committ his own troops 100%.

[Rasputin]

ozzy you would never work with me , i cna post the pms sent to you when you joined showing korea asking for a closer ties, but you refused to even answer. you dont like me ozzy you never have and you allwo persoanlity ot interfer in the decisions you make.

As to indias calim he was worried he might lose. you certainyl werent worried which is why you wanted others to attack you, you stopped attacking others.

as to the spies, my turn player used them a lot.

[India (DoC)]

I add an other big IF, this one was again unpredicatble by me and that is how strongly you'd co-operate in the game, not just in the war but in the preparation. I saw this kind of co-operation, but it could had been even bigger.
for example: It would had been enough if one of you concentrate on the air defense/offensive, an other on artilleries etc... it might be too much to count on, but it was still a possiblity and then it would had nulify my tech advantage. In the end it was only the flight tech which you did not have and had effect on military and I hadn't have artilleries.
I was wondering why you missed flight, even if you only have fighters those could had intercept my bombers very effectively. (they have 100% chance to intercept)

You said that you hoped that lots of machineguns would help, the truth is their numbers hardly matters. There is 20% chance they intercept, the only thing is that one unit can do it once/turn so better to have more. but it's a low chance. Even antitanks have 30% chance (wondered why you hadn't send even one)

[OzzyKP]

I did not know if I could count on someone. I had some ecomomic ccoperation with the Mali, but as you can see on the graph they had one of the weakest military. I was unsure about the Natives untill the very end.. and they only started to build up military in the endgame. (They did really great in the end btw).

I'm not sure how much military they had at the end, or how much they assisted with the war, but I'd like to think I did my part to help prepare. I started building troops, but mostly focused on boosting production. Factories, Pentagon, Mining Inc, and lots of deals set them up at the end. I'm glad to see they were able to get the Dam at the end too.

And as for being unsure about the Natives... I was unsure as well, for the time I had them. My instructions mentioned hostility toward Persia, India & Korea, so I could have gone either way. I even initially contacted Korea about possibly working together, but they responded immediately with hostility. I got no overtures from anyone else in the alliance, so decided to commit to India. Not that I could of course, I handed it back to the original player, but I think the Natives could have been a key tipping point for the Alliance and they failed diplomatically to woo me. Korea in particular did a poor job with diplomacy during my time with the Natives.

[Byzantium (DoC)]

India - I agree with you - things can often be closer that they looked in retrospect.

A comment on your 'ifs':

IF I wouldnt had destroy those Byzantine transports
IF they produce troops even harder and hold back nothing (on the power graph you can see that there were reserves),
- Yes your strike against those transports was genius. I was obviously aware of the danger of an attack, so the port was defended, but the cunning sequencing of the declarations of war, which meant my troops couldn't defend was inspired. Never seen it before - will remember (and use) it again! It connects with teh 'reserves' issue. I didn't have reserves as such though obviously my other borders were not undefended (we all had see what the Russians and Arabs would go given a under-defended neighbour) but rather I had far more troops than could fit on the ships which were left (and there was no point committing marines to the beach to suffer collateral when they could remain on ship). Produce troops harder - yes more could probably have been squeezed you're right.

IF they manage to convince Persia to threaten my homeland too,
- yes and more to the point if Persia had actually wanted a tower destroyed! Particlalry given your quite reasonable support from the natives and mali in the end, it woudl have taken a combined effort of Persia, England, Byzantium and Korea at least to have had a good chance.

IF they use a smaller civ or two (getting Egypt into the alliance upgrading his troops for example) etc.. it may had worked differently..probably

- yes but you had well frightened them! and most didn't really see it was in their interest to try to stop you. One large nation winning rather than another, and always the danger of other attacks (russians, arabas, incan attack on egypt etc.).

Spies - yes perhaps. I think though that this is one point which does reveal just what a dominant position the builder beginnings of India had given you. I was falling behind you in tech all the time (and tech was the decider in the end - your possession of bombers when we had no fighters or sams), there was no way I could invest in episonage against you (or at least I didn't think i could), and I hadn't even had the time to research democracy or communism!

I say your builder beginnins of India gave you such strength, but in fact it was really the cultural position. For without the possibiltiy of a cultural victory, which often has to be planned for fromteh beginning, you would have had to try to attack others, which as you pointed out would have been much harder. It was the fact you could in the end defend for a cultural victory which forced others to have to try an intercontinental invasion against a more advanced enemy which, well, would always need a lot of luck!

[India (DoC)]

Yes, I know that the defender has huge advantage in combat.. there is nothing that can be done about it.. same way I lost my attacking force in Byzantium. only way to win is by big numbers...

(About Civ5, I'm a bit sceptical about what I've heard so far.. don't like it)

[India (DoC)]

So for all of indias attempts to be invaded he still knew he couldnt lose

I've said quite the opposite, but we never understood each other

[India (DoC)]

about the war

It really seemed that Persia only cares about New India. I could had just give it up, bring the troops back, and concentrate on the victory condition. They really sent me the english/byzantne plans on attacking me, but it was not a surprise then (except how confident they were ). As a matter of fact at that time I was at full alert and producing units at full speed.. from the moment I saw the upgraded Persian army, so actually it was them who "woke me up"
I did not want to give up the colonies, because 1, lots of fish came from there, and 2, there was a possibility that after Persia got New India He would still send his armies against the homeland (and 3, I just did not want to "lose" one of my big enemy and give them what they want so easily )
At the second war we wrote earlier how close we were to make peace by me giving up the less important cities.. fortunately the attack against the shrine came earlier than I could had evacute my troops and I got lucky.

I wrote about the shrine attack earlier. IF I wouldnt had destroy those Byzantine transports, IF they produce troops even harder and hold back nothing (on the power graph you can see that there were reserves), IF they manage to convince Persia to threaten my homeland too, IF they use a smaller civ or two (getting Egypt into the alliance upgrading his troops for example) etc.. it may had worked differently..probably..


Something about spies: I was surprised that my enemies hardly used them. I was poisoning their capital, made them revolt, stole 5-6 techs in the game etc. It's a very dangerous tool and even smaller civs in the alliance could had caused significant damage to me.
Persia used spies to revolt me out from slavery which hurt the first time, was not so bad in the second time and I was dissapointed that He didn't do the third time.. I had counted on it damn it . I think those kind of revolts are a bad feature in civ, they could really screw someone so actually I'm very glad you did not use it at full potential.

[Rasputin]

As i said the game was over . Indias description jsut describe his own self beleif in how good he is by trying to turn others agaisnt him . but also knowing full well that Attacking in Civ is not easy , defending is easier.

So for all of indias attempts to be invaded he still knew he couldnt lose


Hoepfuly civ 5 comes up with a much better combat system.

[Byzantium (DoC)]

Very interesting India. Thank you. In part it does show how important the bluff is. I certainly fell to a bluff from Persia in my old conflict with Russia. Particlarly when you are technologically advanced, its easy to see you as superpowered, although in fact the Civ engine is careful to avoid giving too much advantaged to more developed units (the only tanks vs warrior 'problem') as our conflict when you invaded demonstrated. The only things I would add, which perhaps you are about to, if the almost impossibility of attacking across the sea, which meant your relationship with the Mali and Natives was key, and very successfully handled on your part.

[India (DoC)]

Some of my thoughts and insights:

So Raz says that once I got the lead the game was decided-which is too easy to say-, it's never that simple.. there were critical points/moments and I had to be really carefull in planning.
At the time I had attacked Byz my technological lead was huge, mostly because I was able to go on a path which accelerated my research, other civs had the same potential or even more-if the game would have last longer I may had lost my tech lead, there would had been several reason for that, once I may write something about how my economy worked.. in the end I was close to go bankrupt
I wanted a challenging game. First I thought I might use my tech lead to go aggressive and wage war everywhere on earth.. but this just can not work. Even that war against Byzantium cost too much. I slaved/drafted my population, spent lots of money on upgrading-I did not expect any gain from that war except my plan to turn the top civs against myself so it could help forming ballanced blocks against each other. The problem was that I couldnt just make an other army any time soon to be able to attack somewhere and defend the homeland at the same time. I saw then that in the end I will be the defender so I tried to get enemies ..-without overdoing it.. but at that time I was really ahead.. it was hard to estimate how long I can secure this lead, how many of my enemies would actually turn against me.. or maybe they just ignore me and kill each other.
about those critical moments/things:
-When Persia has attacked the Natives soon after my war with Byz I had to step in, threaten Persia with war unless they compensate the Natives..it was just a bluff.. a war then could had result me losing New India. I had no army there at all..a few warriors only and not even a chance to fortify it.. I just lost my armies and no longer could leave the homeland undefended.
-After the war many nations closed their borders with me, it was a significant loss. (I had 4 trade routes per city while the rest of the world max 2.). If a few more closes his borders I may had been forced to switch to mercantilism, which is much worse than free market, but fortunately it was not necessary, some even reopened his borders later.
-There was a time period when my enemies/or future enemies ruled the seas. Once I was very close to attack Korea (just a small lesson nothing more ), but his alone fleet was 3-4 times stronger than mine.. if an alliance would had come that time, even just for blockde it would had been quite bad for me.
-Remember the Greek conflict? the big powers intervened and suddenly India too announced that they can not stand the unjustice against the poor Greek. There was something what India really wanted that time-which may not be seem as a huge thing but I think I would had lost the game without it. And it was a great merchant which more specificaly led to the Sushi corporation. I offered a voucher, troops and our assistance, but after some ooc complains I withdrew. I knew how important that corporation is in my strategy, but I did not want to reveal it and did not want to continue the dispute. Later I got lucky and got a merchant myself at 40% chance.
-Since the alliance just didn't want to form -or at least I did not see-I tried to turn England against me too.. it wasn't easy . I was not sure if it's already too much..
I did not know if I could count on someone. I had some ecomomic ccoperation with the Mali, but as you can see on the graph they had one of the weakest military. I was unsure about the Natives untill the very end.. and they only started to build up military in the endgame. (They did really great in the end btw).

I will contnue..

[Toni]

Good...

[Byzantium (DoC)]

I give in, I really do.

[Robert]

@Byz: I think that Toni gave the last word to me

[Toni]

As I said Byz:

Raz I suggest we leave the Byz/Eng issue behind us now. It is done!! It is history

I hope that was your last negative post! And you will join us moving forward now.