New diplo game: big discussion needed

[mzprox]

I may have found a new victory condition that would be pretty good for Diplogames in my opinion. Check it out HERE.

I like the basic idea. I'm not sure that the point distribution is right tho. (Legendary cities are giving too many points imo and that in itself would make freespeech civic too powerfull-however we would adapt our startegy to this for sure-and would go to raze legendary cities )

Edit*:
I have found out what was my problem. as explained in this post:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpo...3&postcount=36
the weight of the different things are not he same when there are only a few civs or many. (and unfortunately i'm not sure that there is a BTS version for this mod)

[The Capo]

There is a BtS version by Avain otherwise I would not have suggested it. Its just not in that thread because Avain made it seperately but didn't really explain it in his thread. We could also tweak it a little bit to suit our needs, but I think Legendary Cities are important although they may be too heavily weighted. It was just an idea though.

With RS switching sides the vote is now six to three against. And its fine if you want to incorporate it into your strategy, it should be frowned upon though by the international community (i.e. this would be considered a "sneak attack" ala Pearl Harbor), and you'd have to time your turns each time which may result in you being awake at strange hours.

[Black Knight 427]

Now that we have voted, what is next? Are we going to see who will be playing so that could pay closer attention to this thread and help in the creation of a new game?

[The Capo]

I would suggest the new game start either at the end of HOTW XIII (or whatever it is, the one that was going on last) or at the end of BtP. Now we still need a roster. I actually started to put together a game for my mod and we had around ten to eleven players, which I think is the perfect amount, but that was a while ago so I am not sure that we will have the same amount this time around. Considering a few of the players are either disgusted by what has transpired recently, haven't been around, or flat-out probably don't care anymore a new roster is necessary.

The other issue is that we have only really had nine people vote on this topic, at least two of them probably think that the result of the vote is untenable to their better judgement and probably won't play in a game that does not count the move prior to a war declaration as part of an illegal double-move. At least one of them, and a major player (considering he runs Apolyton now), has basically opted out of the vote altogether. So I am sincerely doubting we can rely on them to play in this game. Of course I could be wrong here, and hope I am. And then there are still a few matters on the table; the first is writing up the official set of rules/procedures, how we determine a winner (basically if we are going to use Cyber's voting system or not, I thinkw e should), the map, and other issues as well. So while we are not close to getting a game organized just yet, we have plenty of time and even if we were we should still wait for the other game(s) to end first.

[classical_hero]

This is all so muddy and murky that it will cause more arguements than ever cure. War is all about surprise! If you are clever and work a good plan you can defeat a more powerful enemy or, at least, force them to the negotiating table.

The fact is, I like your compromise even though I don't believe it will work, that I can log on with no idea that it is a Double-Move. I didn't know I was going to be attacked and, since I was not at War already, therefore didn't bother to check Turn-Order. As Player B I am now stuffed as I can either attack to forestall the invasion, those ships may be innocent, or log out and wait for, 'how long'? What if I knew that those ships were coming but needed to make a Double-Move to attack them? What if I logged on just before the Turn flipped and stayed in to complete my next move as well due to R/L commitments?

If we had a purely European game then I believe there would be fewer problems between the players, R/L or not, in enforcing a Double-Move BEFORE War Rule but it just does not work over the diameter of the World or with 18 Players. The idea of waiting as long as you can AFTER the minimum limit to move again is nonsense!

You either have a Rule that fits all situations or you abandon it completely. You must be able to move your Destroyers to stop me invading you, why have them else, but in a Diplo-Game you should already know that I am likely to invade you. You should have adequate defence or, if not, suffer the consequences! So those Destroyers are there for a purpose and if you cannot use them then why build them at all?

Double-Move before War is so wooly that you will create more problems than you solve. Best is to, abandon it entirely, return to a Turn Based Game or only play PitBoss Games within your own Continent: even the last would not be perfect.

Whatsoever, we must all know where we stand BEFORE a Game commences!

Sure war is about surprise, but this is meant to be a different sort of game, where there is a storyline and diplomacy, where conflict can start wars. Normally in real life there is some sort of conflict between the two nations before war is declared. Even under these circumstance war can still be a surprise. If there is to be war in these sorts of games, then they should be different from wars in standard MP games, otherwise it is basically just war and nothing else.

[Robert]

I kinda agree with CH.

[St Jon]

Sure war is about surprise, but this is meant to be a different sort of game, where there is a storyline and diplomacy, where conflict can start wars. Normally in real life there is some sort of conflict between the two nations before war is declared. Even under these circumstance war can still be a surprise. If there is to be war in these sorts of games, then they should be different from wars in standard MP games, otherwise it is basically just war and nothing else.

Of course you are right and you speak as someone who has just been attacked without any story-line build up. I would have been somewhat disenchanted if that had happened to me but that is not the scenario I was describing.

In BtP I do know that I am about to be attacked as the story has been well constructed. I know where the invasion fleet is and if I had the modern navy to act they would be sitting at the bottom of the ocean now. The fact is that I could have found those ships out of Turn Order - unintentionally - with Battleships. What should I do? I haven't checked logins as I am not at war yet so I do not even know if I am Double-Moving or not. There is no way that I would logout to check - I would attack immediately! There is also the scenario where I could have found those ships with a single submarine the Turn before and then deliberately Double-Moved to get ships to the enemy. I defy anyone to arbitrate on whether or not my actions were legal. If I am not allowed to use my navy then I might as well never build ships.

In your situation, I do not know the respective size of armies, if I had noticed a major troop build up beginning close to my borders I would not have waited to be attacked I would have hit the enemy first before they had massed the full invasion force. I know that you were hit with no warning, there needs to be a firm rule on that as well if Diplo is to be different, but I am looking at a legitimate scenario where the 'spirit of the game' has been observed.

[mzprox]

What should I do? I haven't checked logins as I am not at war yet so I do not even know if I am Double-Moving or not. There is no way that I would logout to check - I would attack immediately!

alt-tab, check, and do accordingly. But anyway I'm tired arguing. i have decided that if you don't think it's an unfair move then i will adapt and include it into my strategy: to both defense and attack.

[Pitboss Greece]

In BtP I do know that I am about to be attacked as the story has been well constructed.

Just some advise; you're only a pawn on the board where pieces of bigger nations are in motion. Use that to your advantage! You are not doomed! The pawn can escape destruction since the pawn is never the target, it can only be a stay in the way or a tool being abused to trick the Queen. Make sure that you won't be abused and won't stay in the way, and you'll be fine.
In the meanwhile try to reach the other side of the board and become a queen yourself! That's the game you should play. Play the big nations out against each other, and when their cities are nothing but a pile of ash and fire you can run for victory.

how about that as the most useless piece of serious advice ever

[St Jon]

Just who is this strange Pitboss Greece guy who keeps posting here?

Second offence, has ignored formal warning, definite Permaban!

[St Jon]

In BtP I do know that I am about to be attacked as the story has been well constructed.

Just some advise; you're only a pawn on the board where pieces of bigger nations are in motion. Use that to your advantage! You are not doomed! The pawn can escape destruction since the pawn is never the target, it can only be a stay in the way or a tool being abused to trick the Queen. Make sure that you won't be abused and won't stay in the way, and you'll be fine.
In the meanwhile try to reach the other side of the board and become a queen yourself! That's the game you should play. Play the big nations out against each other, and when their cities are nothing but a pile of ash and fire you can run for victory.

how about that as the most useless piece of serious advice ever

Who the bloody hell are you to go round calling me a Queen!

Bit rich coming from someone who attends Toga Parties and sodomises goats!

[The Capo]

Who the bloody hell are you to go round calling me a Queen!

Bit rich coming from someone who attends Toga Parties and sodomises goats!

LOL

In all seriousness though; I think we should probably let the other games end before starting to plan out a new game. This way we get full attention, probably a better roster of potential players (who will be able to involve themselves in the discussion/planning stage), and of course we won't have this Pitboss Greece fellow commenting on our game .

[Robert]

[action=Robert Plomp]bans Pitboss Greece[/action]

[Black Knight 427]

I kinda agree with capo. the new game should start after BTP, if you wait for HOTW XIII to end i'm afraid we will all be dead of old age. I do think the new game should have 18 players again so that new players who want to play can have a chance. Now in saying this I do not think Capo's mod is a good choice. Though i am a big fan of the mod it still needs alot of work done by someone who knows what they are doing.

[Robert]

Yes, BtP must end first.
I intend to just start hosting a new game after BtP ends. I'm not going to host two games at the same time.