Beyond the Pit -Argument and Debate Thread

[Rasputin]

and so the guilty go free because they have the gift of the gab... Th egroup voted to impose a penalty, the majority agreed. then the guilty talked them out of it....


You guys are continuing to show how correct Capo was in leaving this game.

the exact process used here is why rich people rarely end up in jail becasue they hire great lawyers who can find loopholes and speak so elegnatly that judges despite obvious guilt being found , givign only light or no penalties. whislt the poor and uneducated who cannot get good lawyers are forced to wear the full weight of the penalties.

Sorry guys, but once a penalty is decided on and guilty shown, the guilty party whould not be able to talk his way out of it.

Get rid of all rules and let eveyone do as they please, becasue you have shown that anything is aceptable as long as the game continues.

From Mayas first double move and stalling to keep a worker that cuased a player to leave.

To the map fiasco of hidden agendas only some knew about till i revelaed it and was than shouted down.

To the ultimate fiasco of this latest episode. you guys have shown that nothing matters except making sure the game contineues

VERY VERY SAD

[St Jon]

and so the guilty go free because they have the gift of the gab... Th egroup voted to impose a penalty, the majority agreed. then the guilty talked them out of it....


You guys are continuing to show how correct Capo was in leaving this game.

the exact process used here is why rich people rarely end up in jail becasue they hire great lawyers who can find loopholes and speak so elegnatly that judges despite obvious guilt being found , givign only light or no penalties. whislt the poor and uneducated who cannot get good lawyers are forced to wear the full weight of the penalties.

Sorry guys, but once a penalty is decided on and guilty shown, the guilty party whould not be able to talk his way out of it.

Get rid of all rules and let eveyone do as they please, becasue you have shown that anything is aceptable as long as the game continues.

From Mayas first double move and stalling to keep a worker that cuased a player to leave.

To the map fiasco of hidden agendas only some knew about till i revelaed it and was than shouted down.

To the ultimate fiasco of this latest episode. you guys have shown that nothing matters except making sure the game contineues

VERY VERY SAD

This is cross-thread posting but I have posed the same question on the Org Thread. I was given the chance by Ozzy, as were all apart from the 3 interested parties, as to whether a sanction should be imposed on Cyber. The last I saw of the voting figures the majority had clearly voted YES. Now it appears everyone had 48hrs given to them - I certainly wasn't advised of it - to vote again on whether to impose the sanction already voted for??? Nobody tried to influence me, either way, but political parties wouldn't need manifestos and canvassing either if nobody even knew there was going to be a bloody election!

How did this happen?

[Pitboss Rome]

I don't want to get involved in discussions over this. I simply did what Ozzy and others asked me, but factually FF you did vote. I have hte PM here in my box and it was counted. The fact is also that some people who had seemed to support a penalty in discussion when asked to vote voted differently. No idea why. But anyway, Cyber has imposed the penalty on himself anyway, so it doesn't matter much anyway.

[St Jon]

I don't want to get involved in discussions over this. I simply did what Ozzy and others asked me, but factually FF you did vote. I have hte PM here in my box and it was counted. The fact is also that some people who had seemed to support a penalty in discussion when asked to vote voted differently. No idea why. But anyway, Cyber has imposed the penalty on himself anyway, so it doesn't matter much anyway.

Sorry but I was never asked to vote twice and certainly not after, apparently, Cyber already informed. Confusion 'maybe' as original vote sent to FF but other vote counts and replies to both FF/Pitboss Russia. Truth is nobody asked me to change my mind in a second vote or why second vote needed! Only consideration was whether sanction too harsh, effectively double what was voted YES for, and that only statement from Ozzy. Only strange thing is that next vote count had one player who seemed against any sanction suddenly having voted YES.

No suggestion that we re-consider any sanction at all or tell Cyber - were Maya and Capo asked as well? - before final decision. Unless fact that I did not reply to PM about 'Sanction Reduction' indicating agreement to that was tacit approval, of 'JUST reduced sanction' which I was. being misinterpreted as 'YES' as to anything else! You do not have any PM from either FF or Pitboss Russia saying I Vote 'YES/NO' to no sanction, re-voted or voted 'YES' to telling intersted party(or Parties) first! Reason for that is that I never voted twice, changed vote or agreed with allowing 48hrs for person to be sanctioned given time to try and convince me to vote 'NO', BTW they didn't try, but point is that makes mockery of vote in the first place!

Vote already a joke as any sanction after Spartan victory at Thebes means war already over as Maya/Korea never able to draft and transport new units in 5 turns and you cannot draft Cannon anyway. This very funny way of conducting business!

[St Jon]

The Truth of FF/Pitboss Russia Vote!

For your info this is last PM I sent about sanctions!

****************************

Re: Sorting out this mess - important vote needed
OOC

Kiddies,

I think this all a little wrong as Ozzy did say that none of the involved parties should be advised of this yet Cyber was. Maya I think now must be - Korea is irrelevent but Capo might as well know.

I look to the attachment from a the previous ORG Thread before I joined the game. Please look for it does simplify matters in terms of precedent.

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthrea...=182796&page=5

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Old January 21, 2009, 14:14 #136
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Was that a double move Piercia?

Doing your move 30 minutes before the turn flipped and then 10 minutes after?

Hard to know if it made any difference - the extra defenders in the theatened major city did they get there in one turn or two?
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Old January 21, 2009, 14:29 #137
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Clearly a double turn, and thus most probably a double move.
The turn was ended.

I'm going to reload the game from the begin-turn save immediately when I'm home (in 4 hours).

I assume that Piercia made a mistake.
If others are willing to discuss possible penalties and punishments against Piercia, then they're free to do so.

I personally believe that just reloading will be enough.
So all: please be aware that playing your turn before I have reloaded (I'll post it here!) will be in vain!
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Old January 21, 2009, 14:29 #138
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The reason that I reload immediatley is that I don't want to waste days with discussing this item, only to agree that it's too late then to reload.
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Old January 21, 2009, 14:30 #139
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Weird: Piercia finished his turn twice last turn!
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Old January 21, 2009, 15:54 #140

If we had acted correctly at the time none of this sorry saga need have happened. I never knew about the golden age at the time - I thought the GE dead!

I do not believe that Cyber cheated, deliberately, but through accident or omission he did break his own rules. Punishment? I would have always voted NO but for the new info on the GE being used for a Golden Age. This does change things - without any arguement with Cyber's previous statements.

The GA should not have happened and that GE either killed or captured.

I do not regard any of this as cheating but I do regard it as being outside the spirit of the game and therefore deserving of sanction.

FF

**************************

Clearly shows decision taken before any chance for me TO VOTE AGAIN!!!!

You will note I do give 'Link' but include here text copy - reason Link no longer works as Page has somehow gone from records - How? I am Glad I copied Text or no record at all!

I am very unhappy about this!

[Robert]

Your link doesn't work because it's not a complete link.
This is the post you're refering to: http://apolyton.net/forums/showthrea...64#post5516364

Back then Piercia double moved by accident and we reloaded immediately without any loss. There was no dispute.

I advise against starting another dispute over this.
Especially since it'll not bring us any further.

[The Capo]

[10 chars]

[The Capo]

I just want to say Cyber graciously asked me to return to the game and in exchange he would hand over his Gobi (the desert east of Korea) territory.

While this offer is tempting, it shows that Cyber does not understand my reasons for not returning (I still hold he booted me, he can say otherwise but to me it was quite clear I was booted). I never wanted any mechanical or artificial advantage over you, that was NEVER behind any of my arguments. I simply wanted the rightful and strategic advantages I would have had if the game progressed correctly, those advantages are now gone, due to deliberate illegal acts on the part of a trusted player, no less the host of the game. Now as you attempt to clean up the mess this entire ordeal resulted in more problems are coming up. I'd avise the group to ignore sanctions on Cyber. If you wanted something to be done the RIGHT THING should have been done when it was a possibility. You can't continue and try to retroactively fix what was caused by Cyber's double-move and subsequent continuity of the game. You have to take the lumps you deserve for insisting on continuing the game.

If I were asked to vote on sanctions against Cyber, which is foolish anyway because I am not in the game, I would have said no. Not because I don't believe he deserves some punishment, but because I think at this point it is useless to do. If you can't get a player for Korea they should be joined with the Maya; its the only logical step considering the close relations between the two nations. Not only do they currently share a common enemy and a common ideology, but there is a concrete historical bond between them. Even by blood (their royal families were related). Of course in terms of game-mechanics this would put the Maya at a disadvantage (due to upkeep costs).

Its just a shame to see this happening, knowing full well that had I been listened to ALL OF THIS would have been avoided.

-Peace

[The Capo]

Back then Piercia double moved by accident and we reloaded immediately without any loss. There was no dispute.

This should have happened when YOU double-moved. You even had prior requests not to take your move and to pause the game to settle the issue.

[Rasputin]

Wouldnt have been any dispute any time if game was paused and reloaded !!!

[St Jon]

This should have happened when YOU double-moved. You even had prior requests not to take your move and to pause the game to settle the issue.

Still less do you impose sanctions 'after' the war has been won!

Even more ludicrous is that when you vote on sanctions and a majority clearly vote yes do you have a second vote which, it appears, I was not the only one who knew nothing about!

To then invite the person involved to aid in the decision as to whether or not they felt their actions merited sanctions at all is frankly ludicous! It is like someone being done for double parking whether or not the fine imposed should be reduced or even applied at all! Why bother to have a vote at all in the first place and not just pose the question to the person involved if they felt that they deserved sanction at all and, if so, how great it should be and when it should apply?

Sorry but here, rare as it might be, I do agree with Capo! If we had just voted at the time, before the game had advanced way too far, as to what was right or wrong all this could have been avoided. Harsh words would have been avoided and even though one or other party might have disagreed with the decision they really could not have claimed that an independent decision, rather than arbitary one, had not been reached! We still might still have lost a player, or players, from this game but at least there and then not dragged out over an extended period getting progressively nastier to the point that one party feels so aggrieved thatwe lose them from the entire community not just from BtP!

But nothing can be done now so why coninue to 'cry over spilt milk'? Please 3rd parties you do BtP no aid by continuing to post about this issue as all it does is rake over the same ground and none of you really know what happened then just the, ever more, extreme and insulting posts here!

I suggest we close this thread in a few days time and put it all down to experience. Nothing will change - can be changed - and we have lost Korea and Portugal already so the chances of finding a sub for any future drop outs gets progressively smaller as after one look at this they will rapidly decide that they wouldn't touch BtP with a barge-pole!

Just an opinion.

[Pitboss Japan]

I think you ment Persia not portugal.

[MMC]

But nothing can be done now so why coninue to 'cry over spilt milk'?

Everyone here knows this. The issue is not about what caused the problem, nor the fact that there even is a problem. The issue is about: Why is no-one fixing it?

A problem arose where Cyber broke the rules:

• The rules say the game should be reloaded in this situation - The game continued.
• Independent Judges said the game should be reloaded - The game continued.
• Cyber himself admitted the game should have been reloaded - The game continued.
• Players left in protest - The game continued.

We can say "The game should have been paused. Oh well, it wasn't", but are we going to say that every time a host (not just Cyber) decides to not pause the game? Doesn't that mean that whoever has control of the Pause button can do what they like regardless of the rules?

Perhaps it would have been better to ask someone outside the game to host, but a community like this is built on trust. Cyber admitted he violated that trust (whether or not it was intentional, does not matter) by not pausing the game when he should have done, and then by double moving. How did we respond? "Oh well, nevermind. It won't happen again"

Normally, when someone breaks the rules we have procedures and sanctions we can use. If that person then ignore the sanctions, we can go further and kick the player from the game. This is not possible when the person in questions is the host of the Pitboss game. Nor is kicking Cyber an acceptable solution IMHO.

However, we can demote the Host, and ask him to hand over the save to someone else. He could then continue playing, and be free to offer whatever support services (diplomail, etc) he wishes, but would no longer have the power to kick players, nor the responsibility to pause the game. I do not believe this should be necessary if Cyber is willing to reload the game from the turn when the problem first arose (1635 in the case). No more sanctions need then be applied, with every player being free to do as they wish in the following turns.

If anyone has problems with being forewarned about a world event, just chalk it up to a Matrix-style deja vu event, or a dream, in your story posts. Or you could privately discuss the situation with the other parties involved and arrange to play out the sequence exactly as before. That is your own choice.

PS. If this post seems confusing or repetitive, I'm just writing down my thoughts in the order I have them. I'll happily clarify any points for anyone.

[Robert]

MMC, I'm not going to restart this debate, eventhough I'm very tempted because you put down some very factual untrue things.
Maybe we should just let it rest now and continue this game.

[MMC]

I have simply presented my interpretation of the argument. It is simply my opinion which has been derived from my experience of the events involved. I will admit that some points may be unjust or untrue, but it still uncovers a situation that we should consider as a group.