Hitler as a leader

[Alexander I]

Originally posted by Pinchak

You are indifferent to what your country allows you to think and express, yet you repeatedly show interest in having this thread moved?

Weird.

Please don't over generalize -- I said I was indifferent over whether or not Hitler was banned from public representation, not what I'm allowed to think or express. Antagonizing me serves no purpose - I haven't attacked you.

I have expressed that I want you to move your conversation because at this forum we have rules for where what sort of discussions take place. Historical debates belong in the history forum.

Now please, enough of this already? I'm not going to indirectly continue to support this hostility by continuing to post in this thread.

[Pinchak]

Like I said, I'm over it.

Move this thread, lock it up, burn it, etc...

[zeace]

Ok, I have a very different reason for not including Hitler...

Just imagine what a d*ck the AI would have to be. You think Alex and Monty are ****** who constantly stab you in the back. Just wait and see what the Hitler AI does to your peace treaty, and watch what he does to your city after he takes it. Favorite civics: nationalism and slavery.

And if you thought Izzie was a b*tch about civs of the wrong religion, imagine Hitler...

I don't want to play a game with an AI leader that evil...

[Aro]

Good point...

[Xorbon]

Sounds like a reason to include Hitler. It would be fun screwing him over and wiping him off the map!

[D4everman]

Originally posted by CyberShy
@Pinchak, I don't think that you can compare the Germans with America. The Germans still feel very guilty for what their nation has done in the last century (responsible for 2 world wars!)

I think they're handling it very mature and well. They do not shy away for apologizing for their past (which many nations never have done!). They don't hide it and they discuss it in schools and everywhere all the time.

But there are still Neo-Nazis in Germany. All they want is not another world war started by Germany. Not again! And therefor they have strict laws consering the Nazis and Hitler. And it's obvious that every good law has it's weird sides, that's unavoidable. I don't think that publishing Hitler in a game is that bad, but the question is, where's the limit? And then it's better to just have a general limit, after all it's not that bad to not have Hitler in a game, it's only a game after all.

Perhaps it's hard to understand from an American point of view how hard both world wars have hitted the old continent last century. Europeans and Americans are the same in many things, but there are huge differences as well. We carry a long and loaded past with us.

Can you imagine that it's only 65 years ago Europe had more or less the same circumstances as North Korea has now? Horrible cruelities that seem so far away from us (North Korea, Iraq, Africa) happened only 65 years ago! There are people living in Europe who sufferend in camps. That's such a difference with America. We are different.

The bottom line is that I think that the German administration is handling the Hitler thing in a very wise way.

I was going stay out of this thread, since its pointless to argue about Hitler in this forum. The reasons why he shouldn't be a leader in the game are easy enough for any decent human being to understand. My opinion is that those that think Hitler is an acceptable choice for a leader are simply trolling, ignorant or neo-nazis themselves. Pinchak thinks he knows how Germans feel about it since he worked for a german company? Thats laughable. (BTW HiTler has one T. Geez, its not like you haven't seen the name before) I've lived in Germany for years, I work with a lot of germans, and I can tell you that they are not cold or soulless as he proclaims.

[D4everman]

Originally posted by Pinchak


That combined with the insinuation that I am "ruining my rep", and that you "take pity" on me by speaking my mind, is, IMO, a personal attack.

But you've admitted that you were trolling. Thats certainly not going to help your rep.

You are indifferent to what your country allows you to think and express, yet you repeatedly show interest in having this thread moved?

Weird.

Pot, meet Kettle.

[Virdrago]

Originally posted by khines
Since there is/are already leaderhead mod(s), who cares whether Firaxis included it or not?

My personal opinion, if I had been asked by Firaxis when they were writing the game, would have been put the option to play Hitler in the game. Those who are repulsed by Hitler don't have to play as Hitler. The game allows the player to select opponents, so they would never have to play against him, either.

Unfortunately, you can select opponents, but not leaders. I personally enjoy having the Germans in the game (either playing them or having them as neighbors). Finding out a leader I don't really want in the game showing up instead of Frederick or Bismarck a third of the time would be an annoyance and may turn me off the game (I'm looking through other people's eyes here). Firaxis would not want this.

As for your first point, I believe CyberShy's points were probably put down best.

[Harovan]

You can select leaders.

[couerdelion]

Originally posted by D4everman


The reasons why he shouldn't be a leader in the game are easy enough for any decent human being to understand. My opinion is that those that think Hitler is an acceptable choice for a leader are simply trolling, ignorant or neo-nazis themselves.

So you consider those who are generally on Pinchak's side of the argument to be either trolling, ignorant or neo-nazis.

Now I am offended by this accusation.

I am even slightly amused and yet saddened that in the so-called free world, self-proclaimed decent people have audactiy to suggest that those who support free expression of views or thoughts should be labelled alongside a group almost diametrically opposed to these beliefs.

Decency is far too objective a way of categorising people because you once again label those who do not agree with your opinions as not being decent. Again, the idea that one set of opinions is right and another should be castigated would sit very happily alongside other ideas that were prevalent in 1930's Germany.

Arguments that excluding Hitler on the grounds that he offends only works from a marketing perspective. It is clearly the belief of Firaxis and the publishers that including Hitler would damage sales. This is the only logical argument here. Those who argue that it would offend, fail to explain the inclusion of other elements of the game that are equally abhorrent Since they don't seem to be able to justify the inclusion of the likes of Genghis Khan or Mao Zedong (or any number of elements mentioned by Pnchak) then I can only assume that there is no consistent argument for Hitler's exclusion.

Q: Why is he not in the game?
A: Firaxis think it would be bad from a marketing perspective

Q: Should he be in the game?
A: Yes

[Harovan]

That's my stance:

Q: Why is he not in the game?
A: Firaxis thinks it would be bad from a marketing perspective

Q: Should he be in the game?
A: I don't give a damn. I don't have strong feelings neither pro nor contra. However I'm ready to accept either decision of the developers, because including him would not affect the quality of the game, it would just add one more leader caricature.

[couerdelion]

I suppose it's not too difficult to argue that it is not Firaxis job to be a bastion of free expression.

I'm happy for them to stick to game design

[D4everman]

Originally posted by couerdelion


So you consider those who are generally on Pinchak's side of the argument to be either trolling, ignorant or neo-nazis.

Sorry to offend you, really, but thats about how I feel about it. Pinchak already has already admitted to trolling.

Now, I realize that such a broad generalization on my part isn't exactly PC, but this isn't some world shaking political event, its a game. I'm guessing that most of the pro-hitler posts on threads like this are made just to get someone's dander up.

When someone publicly speaks about adding Adolf in the game in a room with other living, breathing, people as in a game store or a diner I'll take their opinion a bit more seriously. (I won't like it, but I'd admit that the person has cajones to do it in public). When they do it here from the safety of their keyboards I'll stick with what i said.

[couerdelion]

Originally posted by D4everman


Sorry to offend you, really, but thats about how I feel about it. Pinchak already has already admitted to trolling.

Now, I realize that such a broad generalization on my part isn't exactly PC, but this isn't some world shaking political event, its a game. I'm guessing that most of the pro-hitler posts on threads like this are made just to get someone's dander up.

When someone publicly speaks about adding Adolf in the game in a room with other living, breathing, people as in a game store or a diner I'll take their opinion a bit more seriously. (I won't like it, but I'd admit that the person has cajones to do it in public). When they do it here from the safety of their keyboards I'll stick with what i said.

First of all let us be clear that the "pro-hitler" tag here refers to those who believe that he should be a leader in the game. It is not an identifier which suggest that the person in any way supports the actions or beliefs of A.Hitler.

But the second part of your message is also confusing and suggests a certain lack of consistency. On the one hand, you are giving an opinion on a forum which, I presume, you think people should respect. On the other hand, certain opinions of others with which you do not agree, are rejected because they are posted from a remote location: they somehow lack any credibility because these people are cowardly hiding behind a computer screen.

In this particular thread, I think it is the opposite case. It is Pinchak who has stuck his head above the parapet to be shot at by the PC-brigade. He may have made some careless posts and these tend to detract from the main point of his argument. But that does not make his argument wrong. He is, in many ways right in saying that there is no real justification for the exclusion of this major historical figure while accepting the inclusion of many other things.

By contrast, many of his detractors fail to make any valid points. Rather they use the classic PC approach of lambasting the messenger rather than arguing the case. Sitting comfortably their high-horses, they accuse others of racism, stupidity, naivety (or a whole host of personal attacks), while confident that they are safe from any such attacks because they are on the “easy side of the argument”. That this side may be in the wrong does not seem to be important to them.

[D4everman]

I don't think I'm on as high horse. Just as you are giving your opinion I gave mine. If you don't agree with my opinion, fine. It costs me nothing whether you do or not. I don't get an internet prize either way.

I don't give a rats backside about "attacks", so make no mistake, I'm not hiding on some supposedly high horse.
Before you accuse people of attacking Pinchak unjustly remember he said Germans were
"it really isn't too big of a surprise though. Germans tend to be cold, souless, douchbags IMO". If you wanna play Don Imus online expect people to get a little upset.

I think I'm right and I haven't the urge or inclination to explain myself here. Besides, why should you, or even Pinchak even care what I think? Its not like you have to see me every day. Heck, I only post here every blue moon.

Thats why I said earlier this thread that these arguments are pointless.