New Vassal State Information

[Watiggi]

Yeah. I get the feeling that you can't demand anything out of the ordinary. What I mean is that the AI will still behave the same way when you demand something in a Vassal vs. when you are not. So just because they are a Vassal, it doesn't mean that they will give you what you demand - they might be more likely to go to war than to bow down and give. Sound familiar?

I think the Master/Vassal relationship is more of a 'onesided' military alliance where the responsibility for the Vassals protection falls square on the master. I think the idea might be to help them develop (but not too far off course) and treat them as part of your empire rather than simply 'take' from them at will.

I would of liked to have received their gold and research and then at least allow me to decide what happens to it. If I abuse it, the Vassal cuts relations. That would be interesting.

[Swiss Pauli]

I'd hope to see that your Vassal can annoy your neighbours to an extent which, if overlooked, could lead to a DoW on you. In certain situations you might even want to cut the annoying vassal loose, maybe at a one off cost to you (on top of the lost benefits). From what I've read so far, there doesn't seem to be enough risk/downside from being a master.

[Alexander I]

Example: the Roman scenario. Maybe as Carthage you could first vassalize the Celts, then use them as a buffer for your war with Rome.

[Martinus]

Originally posted by Simplicity
Hmmm...

Now I'm wondering if vassals are treated like "Team" members. When you're on the same team in Civ4, you can tell what the other side is researching, right? (Though I've never played on a team before, I thought I saw a screenshot of that somewhere.)

Maybe you can tell what your vassal is researching so you can specifically research something else... That would be nice.

Probably doesn't work that way though.

I believe it was stated that vassalage allows you to investigate the vassal's cities - this mean you can also see what they are researching, since it is visible from the city screen. It probably doesn't work the other way around though (i.e. a vassal cannot see what the master is researching).

[Martinus]

Originally posted by gdijedi7
Units outside your borders cost more than units inside your borders. Do units in a vassal cost like units in your civ, or outside your civ?

My guess is they cost as units in your civ as the vassal's territory counts as your own for the purpose of healing, fortifying etc.

[Watiggi]

That would make sense, otherwise it would be a bummer trying to protect them - having to deal with supply costs, plus support costs and additional maintanence costs.

[DrSpike]

All shall be revealed next week.

[padillah]

Now all I've got to do is figure out a way to justify this to the wife.

She's generally cool about this stuff but we had a couple of old bills resurface and she's kinda irritated right now so...

TomP .

[Lambiorix_be]

Originally posted by monkspider
This may be less useful than we had hoped since the vassal doesn't contribute science or gold directly to the master, but does increase his maintenance costs.

I agree. This is less appealing than I thought. I hoped that when a civ capitulated I would be able to use every city as if it was my own. So they build what I want etc.

This looks more like 'buying time' when a war is going bad and hoping to grow afterwards so that you can renew the war on better terms.

I will probably continue the war until I have reached my primary objectives (mostly get control over strategic resources) and only then accept their offer to become a vassal state...

[padillah]

Originally posted by Lambiorix_be
I will probably continue the war until I have reached my primary objectives (mostly get control over strategic resources) and only then accept their offer to become a vassal state...

If you are going after resources then keeping the war going is wasting time and units. You can demand a vassal turn over resources to you. They may refuse and end up being at war, but that is just the status quo (you're already at war).

Tom P.

[Arbarbonif]

Originally posted by padillah


If you are going after resources then keeping the war going is wasting time and units. You can demand a vassal turn over resources to you. They may refuse and end up being at war, but that is just the status quo (you're already at war).

Tom P.

I wonder if that makes the war their fault then, for war wearyness considerations. So accepting their capitulation could actually be a win-win.

[Willem]

Originally posted by yin26
Also, one should not overlook that the vassal system now hard codes a mechanism for getting more civs involved in any given war as opposed to the series of 1 v 1s that civ often becomes. Here, there is real potential for quite complex diplomatic considerations as well as a more organic feel to the game overall.

Yes, we'll be seeing alot more world wars. And power blocs will be more of an element in the game. A civ with one or two vassals allies with another civ with the same, and suddenly you're out gunned. We'll be forced to ally ourselves more with other leaders instead of just going solo all of the time.

Not to mention that with vassal states, we'll have to be more concerned with other civs winning a Domination victory instead of just a Diplomatic or Space Race one.

[Willem]

Originally posted by Watiggi
so from a gameplay point of view, really the only benefit the master gets is extra happiness

Being a Master is going to affect your power rating, so if you eliminate everyone while your enemies collect vassals to add to their military power, you're going to be dead meat. So the other benefit of having vassals is going to be survival.

[Watiggi]

I hope the tech (if there is one) isn't late in the game. I would expect Fudalism to be the tech. I do find it hard that they will allow it right from the begining of the game. I mean, they don't even allow alliances, tech trading or gold exchanging without a tech, so it would make sense for Vassal State option to require a tech too.

[padillah]

Yes, but tech trading, alliances, and such don't have other blocks in place. Vassalage does.

I think there's enough to accomplish that they don't have to make it tech-related and you still won't end up in one before mid-game.

I'm waiting to see if the AI will ever capitulate. Or even agree under duress. I think it's an option that will never be available because the AI will never accept that it's in that bad a position.

Tom P.