New Vassal State Information

[Virdrago]

I guess the answers will come in the review. Now... when will that be?

[Virdrago]

A couple of days after the release, probably.


Never mind.

[Thedrin]

Additionally, in the above quoted strategy, move some of your defenders into CivB's cities so that you can get more defensive promotions without risking your lands should they die.

[Jaybe]

Originally posted by Solver

Also, when will the review be available?

A couple of days after the release, probably.

Pah! ONE day after release I will purchase Warlords!
By the next day I will have a game in progress, having FUN trying to figure out how it all works, possibly losing the game figuring out how it DOESN'T work!

Solver's review will appear about that time. Will I find it a 'timely' and 'helpful' review? Time will tell.

[Solver]

Well, I'll do my best. For those who buy the game on release, there won't be any new mechanics info, but I hope that me having several months of Warlords playing experience would make it somewhat interesting.

[DrSpike]

Sounds neat. I hope it works as well in practice.

[Common Sensei]

Vassal States when I first heard about it reminded me of Colonization. This new info really reminds me of it, at least with the potential to build up and declare independence.

Good fodder for a Colonization mod.

[MasterDave]

I am going to play a few games with vassal states included before I make a judgement about how the implentation of the feature sucks or is great. From what I have heard so far, the reduction of end-game domination victory slogging alone makes it a worthwhile addition.

[The_Aussie_Lurker]

Seriously, I am simply glad Vassal States have finally made the cut, even if they are a little 'nerfed' when compared to the original reviews.
I definitely think some small Tribute from the vassalised state would have made such aggreements more palatable, but we still shouldn't overlook the obvious benefit for peaceful civs. Namely it offers an opportunity for two smaller nations to 'band together'-albiet in an asymmetric fashion-to out compete much bigger rivals, without the need to resort to conquest. The main key for me, however, is WHEN does it become available. Any later than Feudalism, and it really becomes a bit pointless.

Aussie_Lurker.

[Louis XXIV]

Did Solver let something slip?

Then the only right choice, ever, in any game, would be to rush one AI early. You do that, you make them capitulate, and boom, you have the power of two civs.

Of course, he was talking entirely in hypotheticals, but it suggests that they are available early.

Either that or it suggests I read too much into things

[padillah]

Why shouldn't it simply be a game mechanic? Available from the start.

What technology do you need to understand "I'm more powerful than you. If you don't do as I say I'll beat the crap out of you"?

There is no "Understanding brutality" tech.

Tom P.

[gdijedi7]

Now, I haven't been keeping up since after my computer died, I lost one of my Civ4 discs. Is this in an expansion pack?

Maybe there should be a "Vassal State" for capitulation in a war, and a "Client State" for peace. The Client State would not have as many negatives, and both players could benifit more, or something like that.

[Martinus]

I'm very much glad Vassal States made it into Civ4, since that was one of the SMAC-like things that were sorely missing from vanilla Civ4.

[CarnalCanaan]

It seems like those disappointed by these Vassal States as explained are those disappointed that the game has become more not less complex.

Why must everything make the game easier to win? Is it not more fun to tack on goodies that make an old game into a new challenge?

I think one of the best (and most subtle) improvements in Civ 4 over Civ 3 is its deep portrayal of international relations. I'm biased, perhaps. But it's relatively simply constituted. There are really only three variables in one equation:
(p + n) * x = action
where
p = something I like
n = something I don't like
x = a factor of randomness
But attached to each of the variables is SO MANY secondary variables.

[Watiggi]

Okay.

I have had some sleep and I have gotten over my initial dissapointment. Solver, yeah, receiving research would probably destablise the balance of the game. I can now see some interesting aspects of Vassals with the way it is now:

1) If they are your Vassal (by force), and their empire grows to more than half of yours, they can then break the relationship. Now, if I were a conqueror building a big empire, then there would be no way for them to catch me. This seems built for the conqueror in mind here. If the Vassals size is reduced by half - which would mean that an enemy has conquered them and it also suggests that you aren't very good at protecting them - then they can also break the relationship. Again, for a conqueror who is essentially conquering all the time, there will be no chance that the Vassal will be able to out grow you. Mind you, being a small empire and taking out your neighbour may result in a Vassal but they could break it because they are bigger than half yours. Interesting. That would (thankfully) rule out the 'Vassalise your neighbour rush' so that you can get a leg up in the game. Mind you, the Settler bonus with Imperialisitc has a WHOLE new meaning now! I can't see the Imperialistc leaders becoming Vassals too often.

2) Happiness! That seems to be the bonus - the conquerors return on investment - happiness! It would help immensely with war warriness. I wonder, if by collecting Vassal after Vassal, you can actually accumulate a lot of happiness to counter the war warriness - thus allowing the conqueror to continue their war campaign? How much happiness is given to the Vassal? Is it in terms of 1 happiness per Vassal in all cities or is it in a percentage of city size - much like war warriness.

Sadly though, I don't think this system will cater for those who want to be the Vassal: Decreased happiness? I guess doing so volentarily wont be so bad (assuming it could be done), but it really looks like it caters only for the conqueror.

The idea of not getting tribute seems strange. Genghis got tribute given from his Vassals and when they stopped giving, Genghis 'corrected' the situation. It just doesn't feel right not getting something like some gold or something - especially for a Capitulation. Strange indeed.

So, I can see that a conquerors strategy would keep the other civ as a Vassal and the increased happiness would help with war warriness as well. I guess thinking about it, anything that counters war warriness is a fantastic thing for a conqueror. Solver, could you give some details about the happiness given (ie, how much and if it is for all cities in the empire)?

EDIT: 3) Military alliances. If you are growing your empire and remain more than twice their size, you can then freely help develop them, protect them and treat them as part of your empire. I wonder whether you looking after them well (even from a capitulation), will they become co-operative? If so, then there is great potential for military co-operation and possilbe research co-op too. Maybe they can be treated as an extention of your empire (provided they don't get too big).

I reckon it would be interesting if you had 9 Vassals and some small, puny idiot of an AI decided to declare war with you and all 9 Vassals automatically declared war as well. That would be a sight to see. I can hear it now - the war horn sound made 9 times, each one playing on top of the previous one!

I think military alliances could be really good if the master knows how to look after the Vassals properly. It looks like there is more to this Vassal State system than meets the eye

Solver, so that I don't come up with ideas that are yet again unrealistic in this game, could you tell us how much happiness is gained from a Vassal (and whether it it is meant to counter WW), how many Vassals can be acquired at once (is there a limit or is it based on how much you can afford with the increased maintanence?) and how how much 'synergy' is there with military alliances - can they truely be considered as part of your empire (from a military perspective) or something similar?

Watiggi