New Vassal State Information

[Watiggi]

Mr Bee (the guy from IGN who did the reviews) has released information about the Vassal States. I have just copied and pasted the information here for those who cannot view the CFC site.

Quoted from a post on Civfanatics by Mr Bee, from IGN:

"There have been tons of questions about the Vassal states, so I thought I'd offer an overview of how they work.

There are two ways to become a vassal state:
1. During peacetime, a civilization may voluntarily become a vassal. The vassal (NOT the master) is given the option to renew the relationship after 10 turns.

2. A vassal relationship that arises during wartime is referred to as Capitulation. It differs from the peacetime arrangement in that the vassal can't break the relationship unless a) it grows to at least half the size (land and population) of the master or b) loses more than half the territory it owned at the time the agreement was created.

There are some notable benefits to being a master:
1. The master enjoys complete freedom of movement in the vassal's territory, including the ability to heal and use fortifications owned by the vassal. The master can also investiage any vassal city.

2. The master can demand any resource from a vassal, even those that the vassal is using. The vassal has the right to refuse the demand but if they do they two states are immediately at war.

3. The master's people enjoy increased happiness. Those in the vassal empire suffer decreased happiness.

4. The vassal can't make war or peace on its own. It immediately adopts the master's war and peace relationships.

5. Half of the vassal's territory and population count towards the master's domination victory AND score.

So far, so good. But there is at least one significant downside to being a master. Every vassal increases the maintenance costs of each of the master's cities."

[padillah]

But, what are the benefits of being a vassel?

Why would anyone volunter to become a vassel?

Can a "capitulated vassel" declare war on it's master?

Without these two things I don't see the use of this. If there's no benefit to being a vassel I'm never going to want to be one (to alleviate a problem, for example). And if there's no way for the vassel to break a "capitulation agreement" I'll never capitulate.


Tom P.

[Will9]

Awsome! I thought that the vassal could renew the agreement any time after 10 turns. That means as long as you keep the vassal the same size they're stuck.

The benifets of being a vassal is that your protected by a more powerful nation.

[rah]

To keep from being killed. Become a vassel and try for a culture victory. Maybe papa will defend you while you concentrate on culture. Might be interesting to try/

[snoopy369]

/me points to PTWDG1

[padillah]

Yeah, but keeping a civ at a certain size is going to be hard. It'll take some form of micromanaging and the master will have to out expand the vassel.

And you can't just keep them the same size cause they could start dumping cities on purpose just to get away.

I'm still not sure of what the bonus is for the vassel. Not getting killed? Sorry, not enough. What's the difference between getting killed and not being able to play the rest of the game casue the master says you can't go to war?

I'm not seeing a real bonus. I'm not seeing anything that might tip the balance towards the vassel.

Tom P.

[monkspider]

This may be less useful than we had hoped since the vassal doesn't contribute science or gold directly to the master, but does increase his maintenance costs.

[padillah]

Originally posted by Will9
The benifets of being a vassal is that your protected by a more powerful nation.

I don't see that. So far nothing says the master has to defend the vassel. The vassel has the master's peace/war status but the master may not have to have the vassel's peace/war status.

In other words, if someone declared war on the master the vassel has to declare war too. But, if someone declared war on the vassel does the master have to come running?

Tom P.

[Solver]

Yes, if someone declares war on the vassal, the master also has to go to war, that's what is meant by the same peace/war status.

[Watiggi]

Yeah, I don't like it either. I can see why there hasn't been much information about it. There is nothing to really tell. I expected it to play a strategic part in a game, but it just looks like convenience factor.

Btw, there is nothing that suggests that the human player can become the Vassal. It wouldn't surprise me if this exists solely for the human dominator and nothing more.

I was expecting a more complete strategic level of functionality where empires can be built and managed with them, including economy and research. Apparently not, it would appear.

[monkspider]

Solver: Can you comment on how useful vassalization is vis a vis outright conquest?

[Solver]

In my review .

With vassals you have this advantage that you don't need to bother hunting down them to the point where you eliminate their last city.

[Thedrin]

Thanks Watiggi.

Excellent way to work the Vassal states.

I would have liked to have seen more ways for a capitulation vassal to break away from the master. Such a vassal under the right circumstances could be able to build up a decent army and fight for freedom. Maybe this can still happen and the listed ways are the only peaceful ways to break from servitude.

Vassals should count towards maintenance costs. Maintaining a controlling presence in foreign lands isn't cheap. It's also be too powerful without the costs.

[yin26]

Agreeing to take on a vassal will be a highly situational decision, one that's mostly useful for wrapping up an end game that would otherwise prove a slog (this is a huge improvement, in my view). Also, one should not overlook that the vassal system now hard codes a mechanism for getting more civs involved in any given war as opposed to the series of 1 v 1s that civ often becomes. Here, there is real potential for quite complex diplomatic considerations as well as a more organic feel to the game overall.

More from Solver in his review, I'm sure, later on!

[Solver]

Yep, the real fun potential in vassal states is in having the global political situation turn out more interesting if a war breaks out.